S/o comparing our generation: Smartphones

WitchKitty

Wed, Feb 01 2017, 12:45 am

sourstix wrote:

But don't start with the smartphone and internet ban. The rabbonim themselves have it. I know too much. I won't say how or what. But trust me I know.

Started already, too late...
I live in E"Y. None of the rabbonim in my neighborhood have a smartphone.
But my question is actually the opposite. Why can they tell people to do something if most of them have no clue what it is? The gedolim here have never touched a smartphone.

PinkFridge

Wed, Feb 01 2017, 8:46 am

I think 5mom has a point in that we might hear that Rav So and So said xyz. Assuming he did say it, we need to have our IRL, accessible hadracha to help us with our decisions. A few years ago there was a huge, much-hyped internet asifa. I don't want to start a tangent but if there was one good thing that happened it was that there were regional areas of rabbanim, and local initiatives within individual communities to establish community standards and give chizuk. In my OOT community, no school demands an ishur, there are standards for elementary and h.s. kids and social networking, there's a rav who recommends certain filters, etc. for his kehillah, etc.

But I wouldn't dismiss those rabbanim in their so-called ivory towers. Our community sponsors a several-day conference for medical professionals, with some sessions opened to the public. They've brought in several internationally known poskim on medical ethics, who describe the process, and who they ask as I guess you could say, their Supreme Court. IOW, shailos are posed to a local rav, who bumps it up and bumps it up... and guess who ultimately it's bumped up to: the Vilna Gaons of our generations.

amother

Lilac

Wed, Feb 01 2017, 9:36 am

because they hear all the horror stories that start from people having smartphones. wives that their husbands got hooked on [filth] and worse in the comfort of their own home, young boys and girls (I personally know at least 5) that with simple access to a smartphone went completely off....
they don't need to have it in order to know the harm it can cause. you don't need to get a burn in order to know it hurts. ever saw someone that got a burn?? that's enough visualization to know it hurts like hell.

5mom

Wed, Feb 01 2017, 9:40 am

I'm not dismissing ivory tower rabbis. They have much to teach us, but probably more in abstract learning than in everyday life. The internet asifa was called by men who don't pay their credit card bills or make travel reservations or do grocery shopping for themselves - in person OR on line. I am sure they meant well, but by overreaching, they made themselves look foolish. Not a good result.

If you want to influence the world, you have to know what's going on around you.

amother

Blue

Wed, Feb 01 2017, 9:41 am

amother wrote:

That's a great analogy.

Someone who never uses fire and sees people getting burned - of course they ban fire.

Is that the correct approach though?

Or is the correct approach to teach people how to use fire correctly and empower them to be responsible?

I think the Karliner Rebbe's approach is the most pragmatic and logical approach taken in the chareidi world.

amother

Cobalt

Wed, Feb 01 2017, 9:44 am

amother wrote:

I don't need a burn to know it hurts. If I banned stoves because every burn story I heard involved a stove, I'd be an idiot for not knowing that the vast majority of the time, stoves cook food without causing harm. Or do you think we should all eat raw food because some people get burned by stoves?

mommy3b2c

Wed, Feb 01 2017, 9:45 am

amother wrote:

You are confused. Nobody goes off because of a smartphone. A smartphone is just a tool. Before smartphones, just as many people went "off." Banning things doesn't solve any problems. Getting to the root solves problems. Instead of banning things left and right, our leaders need to figure out why people are so unhappy. Children need to be taught to think for themselves and figure out right from wrong. If you tell them something is wrong, you need to explain why. Spreading hysteria does not help anybody.

treestump

Wed, Feb 01 2017, 9:47 am

mommy3b2c wrote:

This.

amother

Blonde

Wed, Feb 01 2017, 9:50 am

mommy3b2c wrote:

Agree with this.

DH has a sister who is not Shomer anything (shabbos, negiah, you name it.....) DH wanted our home to be free of secular books of any sort, because as a girl this sister read novels. I explained to DH that his sister did not go OTD from reading The Boxcar series.....She went OTD because she grew up in an unhappy home with an abusive father, and her needs were not met (and DH went away to yeshiva and got better role models and surrogate parents....)

amother

Lilac

Wed, Feb 01 2017, 9:54 am

mommy3b2c wrote:

I am not confused. and yes, you can debate my example all you want. people do not go off cuz of a SP but they do go off because of the unfiltered access to internet that it gives them. why do you think they aren't explaining why they are against SP? unless going off the derech (children and adults alike) is not a good enough reason for you.

amother because IRL I argue the same side.

HonesttoGod

Wed, Feb 01 2017, 10:01 am

amother wrote:

- how do we know those boys wouldn't have gone off withOUT the smartphone?
- Maybe the smart phone helped them to stay a little more connected than they otherwise would have?
- What are ALL the horror stories? 3 out of 1Million Frum people ? That isn't a lot. Yes they hear the bad but it is a minority.
- Why don't they hear about all the good? And there is a LOT of it. For example, daily halacha instagram posts, daily texts to learn chafetz chaim, weekly online shiurim, torahanytime.com = access to hundreds of inspirational shiurim for all types and I can go on and on and on. The chesed that people can do via text and whatsapp. Whatsapp groups exclusively for chessed and mitzvos from meal planning for those that can't cook to ride finding for those that need lifts etc. etc. etc.
- And then what about the general ease of life? The ability to do things easily and quickly with a click of the mouse to give men more time to learn and women more time to take care of the house (since it seems this is what they want us all to do)? Credit card payments, Dr appointment booking, Amazon ordering etc.
not to mention these days practically EVERYTHING is online. I can tell you that our company does not accept clients that do not have email access because we cannot work without it. Everything is online and with email.

The 5% or let's be generous and say 10% of bad things that happen from smart phones a: could have happened anyway and we will never know and b: should not and cannot be an example for every person/smart phone!

amother

Lilac

Wed, Feb 01 2017, 10:07 am

HonesttoGod wrote:

we don't know but internet access definitely makes it easier and is many times the impetus for going off.

really? you know 1 million frum people and only 3 of them are off? really?

the SP helped them stay connected to what????

I am an internet user. I appreciate the ease and practicality it affords us but like others said the rabbis don't appreciate that factor (or any of the spiritual sources it can provide). they banned SP (with internet, without a filter) because of all the stories that come their way and they feel it's not worth all the good things you can take away.

besides, obviously most people don't care that it was banned. we go on having SPs and do what we like. are you upset that they dare ban something that you know you don't want to give up? is the ban making you uncomfortable?

gp2.0

Wed, Feb 01 2017, 10:10 am

People who want to go off are searching for information about things outside the community and people who think and feel like they do.

Before smartphones, they filled this need in other ways. Public libraries have been around for a long time. Private libraries have been around for even longer. Nothing has ever stopped a curious mind from meeting up with other curious minds, whether they do so with their smartphones on the internet or with a manuscript in a cave.

We give ourselves a lot of credit. The whole concept is laughable. You think this generation is so special? Only this generation figured out everything that the previous generations didn't?

That's what all children think.

Until they grow up and their children claim to know better than them.

treestump

Wed, Feb 01 2017, 10:12 am

Personally I think a greater nisayon in our generation is coddling people and taking away anything that might be a temptation. Instead of empowering people, removing anything that might be a tiny challenge.

If we raise our children in sterile bubbles, they won't develop a healthy immune system.

And when they do encounter germs - not if, but when - it can wreak havoc instead of dealing with it.

Banning everything and anything weakens people.

If we ban driving because of the amount of car accidents, what will happen when someone urgently needs to drive somewhere?

With no drivers ed, no knowledge of car safety, having been banned from driving all their life - they will probably crash.