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-> Interesting Discussions
real israeli
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 Sun, Feb 05 2017, 8:54 pm
Just curious: how do you know that the used car you are buying doesn't have any hidden issues that they aren't telling you about? Issues that can be costly to fix?
For example: maybe the car was in an accident and they only fixed the exterior but the motor will die with two years
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Hashem_Yaazor
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Sun, Feb 05 2017, 8:57 pm
| amother wrote: | | Used Toyota Siennas and Honda Odysseys are expensive to maintain as they age? |
Mine was not expensive to maintain till it hit 10 years old (Sienna). We've had several repairs in the last year which are normal with age but labor costs were more than for some other car models due to the work involved to get to the part to fix. But the fixes done should IY"H last for a long, long time, and the engine is also supposed to last another 100K miles (we're at a little over 100K now).
We bought it used in November 07, when the 08s were coming out, and it's an 06. First major repair (vs regular maintenance stuff like tires) was June 2016. Another repair this past month.
But it's worth it to us since it houses 6 kids in the back EASILY, with real sized seats to fit car seats well.
So my husband drives that and can do school runs with it, while I drive a big van, so we're still willing to put money into it to keep it running.
(If we leased, we'd be stuck with a newer model we'd worry about scratching, monthly payments, and not so much ease of use for car seats because they don't make minivans as car seat friendly as they did then....we definitely came out ahead.)
For our big van, we didn't have options like you do for minivans to buy used for what we needed safety-wise. So in 2015, with the 16s coming out, we got a fairly good deal on a brand new (10 miles!!) 2014, and yes, we're financing it because we didn't have the cash to lay out completely. It had been sitting on the lot because it didn't have all the bells and whistles but the dealer was happy to throw in some for free to be able to sell it, and we paid what we would have for a used van of that type. 10 year warranty on it, and very good financing rates. We still have a way to go to pay it off, but we'll own it free and clear and IY"H use it for many, many years to come.
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Hashem_Yaazor
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Sun, Feb 05 2017, 8:58 pm
| real israeli wrote: | Just curious: how do you know that the used car you are buying doesn't have any hidden issues that they aren't telling you about? Issues that can be costly to fix?
For example: maybe the car was in an accident and they only fixed the exterior but the motor will die with two years |
If it was THAT major, it should be on a carfax report...but most people who are buying used cars will have a mechanic they trust check it out before committing to buy.
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Hashem_Yaazor
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Sun, Feb 05 2017, 9:07 pm
| amother wrote: | In your equation you calculated selling it now for 5k. Who says you will be able to? A car that old must have lots of miles on it. I don't think it's worth 5k.
Second, you say it comes out to a little over 1k/year. It's actually, to be precise, 1400/year. Not including repairs.
You spend very little on repairs, but with your math (of 1400 being a little over 1k), I'd want to hear exact numbers of how little those repairs were. Tires alone cost an average of 650-700 every three years so in 10 years, you've spent 2100 on tires alone. Divide that per year, comes out to another 210/year for a total of 1610/year.
Brakes need to be changed approximately every 4 years (depending on how much you drive). Brakes cost average 500. In 10 years you should have changed your brakes twice and half for a total of 1250. Divide that by 10 years = 125/year for a total of 1735/year.
And those are only two of the basics. Now maybe you had good luck, but on average, in a 10 year span of a car, you'll have to do a lot more from changing the belts to buying new wipers, changing the transmission fluid and putting new spark plugs. All of these things, besides for adding up financially, take up of your time, which to many people translates into money too (taking taxis while the car is being serviced, loss of work, etc.)
A good deal on a lease, at some point you could have gotten them for 220/month with no money down, comes out to about 2700/year with no additional costs of money or time. |
The KBB value on a 10 yo Sienna is somewhere around 5K, or even more, depending on condition. My Sienna which was 9 years old when we looked into selling it was around 6K, and that is with a broken electric sliding door. Not sure what we could have gotten for it (we kept it) and I suspect we could have gotten much more for it in frum markets, especially with carpools, due to the amazing space this model has...
But at the end of the day, after you've spent about 8K for 3 years of a minivan, assuming you aren't docked for any scratches or anything, and you're left with nothing.
You can buy a used newish model minivan for $17,000, use it for 3 years, then sell it easily for $11-12,000 at that point and have only lost 5-6K. Even if you only sell it for 10K, that's 7K you didn't have to spend on it. When you get used from a dealer, it usually already has decent tires on it, and shouldn't need anything major done in that time frame. So you roll your extra savings of 1-3K into your next purchase and come out ahead vs leasing (if you think to do so).
I think Dave Ramsey has some clip about buying a used car, and putting away what you would have spent for a newer one in savings, then re-selling the used one, and taking that money plus the savings for a slightly better model, and continue on to being able to afford much better quality. That is, if you were planning on spending the money anyway....some of us never were, so we don't have that extra money to save for such a designated purpose 
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amother
Black
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Sun, Feb 05 2017, 10:42 pm
| real israeli wrote: | Just curious: how do you know that the used car you are buying doesn't have any hidden issues that they aren't telling you about? Issues that can be costly to fix?
For example: maybe the car was in an accident and they only fixed the exterior but the motor will die with two years |
We buy our used cars from an acquaintance who owns a mechanic shop, does a full scale inspection, and warranties it before selling. We bought a 3 year old minivan with high mileage for 11k with taxes, 4 years ago. We've spent a total of $1000 on upkeep and repairs. My husband uses it daily and it's in great working condition. Cars these days can run until very high mileage, especially if you buy from someone trusted. We've broken even with leasing already, and anything more is just gravy. Sure it's not the newest model anymore, but it gets us from point A to point B. With 5 tuitions, we can't afford to add another monthly bill. Although I do wonder if the schools would have given us a greater scholarship if we had a lease payment to show. Sometime frugality doesn't seem to be honored in this backwards system we live in.
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amother
Salmon
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Sun, Feb 05 2017, 11:05 pm
| Hashem_Yaazor wrote: | The KBB value on a 10 yo Sienna is somewhere around 5K, or even more, depending on condition. My Sienna which was 9 years old when we looked into selling it was around 6K, and that is with a broken electric sliding door. Not sure what we could have gotten for it (we kept it) and I suspect we could have gotten much more for it in frum markets, especially with carpools, due to the amazing space this model has...
But at the end of the day, after you've spent about 8K for 3 years of a minivan, assuming you aren't docked for any scratches or anything, and you're left with nothing.
You can buy a used newish model minivan for $17,000, use it for 3 years, then sell it easily for $11-12,000 at that point and have only lost 5-6K. Even if you only sell it for 10K, that's 7K you didn't have to spend on it. When you get used from a dealer, it usually already has decent tires on it, and shouldn't need anything major done in that time frame. So you roll your extra savings of 1-3K into your next purchase and come out ahead vs leasing (if you think to do so).
I think Dave Ramsey has some clip about buying a used car, and putting away what you would have spent for a newer one in savings, then re-selling the used one, and taking that money plus the savings for a slightly better model, and continue on to being able to afford much better quality. That is, if you were planning on spending the money anyway....some of us never were, so we don't have that extra money to save for such a designated purpose |
All good and well, but the markets don't always work so well, and the availability of used cars aren't always the same. My BIL bought a used car for 22k, used it 8 years and sold it for 12k because it was right after the tsunami in Japan and used cars were in high demand then. DH bought a used car for 5k, used it 2 years, and sold if for 1500 (for parts) because he couldn't rip off the next buyer like they did to him.
And then there's always the fact that you need 17k up front.
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amother
Salmon
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Sun, Feb 05 2017, 11:07 pm
| amother wrote: | | We buy our used cars from an acquaintance who owns a mechanic shop, does a full scale inspection, and warranties it before selling. We bought a 3 year old minivan with high mileage for 11k with taxes, 4 years ago. We've spent a total of $1000 on upkeep and repairs. My husband uses it daily and it's in great working condition. Cars these days can run until very high mileage, especially if you buy from someone trusted. We've broken even with leasing already, and anything more is just gravy. Sure it's not the newest model anymore, but it gets us from point A to point B. With 5 tuitions, we can't afford to add another monthly bill. Although I do wonder if the schools would have given us a greater scholarship if we had a lease payment to show. Sometime frugality doesn't seem to be honored in this backwards system we live in. |
You know there are many levels in between right? I don't need the latest model, but I do need AC, radio, and some other non-essential basics. I also need the peace of mind that my car wont' break down on me in middle of a busy day.
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amother
Cerise
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Sun, Feb 05 2017, 11:10 pm
| amother wrote: | All good and well, but the markets don't always work so well, and the availability of used cars aren't always the same. My BIL bought a used car for 22k, used it 8 years and sold it for 12k because it was right after the tsunami in Japan and used cars were in high demand then. DH bought a used car for 5k, used it 2 years, and sold if for 1500 (for parts) because he couldn't rip off the next buyer like they did to him.
And then there's always the fact that you need 17k up front. |
You can borrow the 17K
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amother
Salmon
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Sun, Feb 05 2017, 11:11 pm
| amother wrote: | | You can borrow the 17K | You mean, you can.
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HealthCoach
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Sun, Feb 05 2017, 11:16 pm
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Some people lease because they can write off as business expense and deduct it from taxes if they own a business. Otherwise it's cheaper to buy.
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amother
Navy
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Sun, Feb 05 2017, 11:16 pm
Leasing is more expensive.
We lease solely to get a new car every 3 years. DH enjoys that.
And the car doesn't give you problems, doesn't get old.
Ok with me.
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amother
Black
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Sun, Feb 05 2017, 11:25 pm
| amother wrote: | | You know there are many levels in between right? I don't need the latest model, but I do need AC, radio, and some other non-essential basics. I also need the peace of mind that my car wont' break down on me in middle of a busy day. |
Yeah we have all that, don't worry. And Bluetooth, too. We just recently took it on a 4000 mile trip as well. People jump to leases for the easy way out, and it seems like most leasees have tons of excuses regarding used cars. If you do your research and speak to people in the know, you can find great deals on used vehicles that will last for many years to come and save many thousands of dollars. And if you just like the luxury of a new car every few years, that's cool too, but at least own up to it.
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amother
Red
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Sun, Feb 05 2017, 11:42 pm
op not sure what all this debate is really about.
People lease cars for one of three reasons, 1)Its the cheapest way to always own a new car if that's important to you for whatever reason (ex. businessman needs to look successful or whatever) 2) They own a business and can write it off as an expense 3) They cant afford to buy a car that doesn't need repairs
If you can, of course financing (which in my case costs only an additional $75/year in debt service) is the way to go. You buy a 2 year old car from a dealer, preferably a Toyota which depreciates slowly. It comes with fresh tires and breaks. Then you sell it when its 5 years old and not under warranty. That is by far the cheapest way to own a car. Particularly if you buy from a frum dealer in a large frum community.
People who lease aren't mathematically challenged. They either don't have a choice, want the tax shelter, or would like a brand new car. That's their prerogative.
But for all those people claiming that leasing is cheaper, your calculations do not include insurance costs. That's a large added expense I for one can't afford. That's why we financed even though our payments are similar.
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amother
Cerise
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Sun, Feb 05 2017, 11:44 pm
| amother wrote: | | You mean, you can. |
Fair point. But is qualifying for a lease easier than qualifying for a loan? (honestly I don't know. I take the subway everywhere).
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bookworm10
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Mon, Feb 06 2017, 12:12 am
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We lease because we cannot afford to buy. Simple. I can afford a low monthly payment but not a lump sum.
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Ruchel
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Mon, Feb 06 2017, 8:17 am
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I have a relative in Israel who leases his car. I just don't get it.
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STMommy
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Mon, Feb 06 2017, 9:07 am
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No one mentioned this as part of the desire to get a new car every few years by leasing, but the reason I lease my minivan is because the safety innovations of new cars are coming so fast, that the new van I just leased has safety features that literally didn't exist three years ago the last time I leased. My new van is the IIHS top safety pick, 5-star rated in every crash test and has multiple features designed to prevent accidents. the minivan I leased before this one was number 1 on the list three years ago, and has now been bumped down to number three. In other words by leasing, I got a major safety upgrade and I'm not paying more per month than in my previous lease. Totally worth it to me.
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rikki 1
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Mon, Feb 06 2017, 10:21 am
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the people saying it's financially smart to buy a pretty new used vehicle and then sell it in a few years when no more warranty or before problems start, what about the tax costs? That is a lot of money to throw out that you don't benefit from? I bought (financed) a 4 year old Sienna and the tax cost threw me for a loop- it was close to $1200 (that amount could have been the upfront payment for lease that I hadn't liked when I looked into leasing).
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ValleyMom
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Mon, Feb 06 2017, 10:25 am
We used to buy but in the past 10 years we started leasing.
Why?
Well, by the time the car starts giving us a little grief we switch it for a new car.
I used to LIVE at our local mechanic.
In fact I knew him years before I finally met his wife :-)
Nowadays we own 2 cars and lease 2 cars and the older cars are such a pain in the neck when they break down stranding the driver...
At present we lease 3 cars and are down to one last car we own- my poor poor son has had to uber to and from work several times this year while dealing with a broken down van.
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mha3484
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Mon, Feb 06 2017, 10:30 am
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Why is it all or nothing? We are currently financing a 2010 SUV and are very happy we chose that over leasing. We chose a car (volvo) that is known to last forever. Anyways, I have 3 little boys the thought of having to return a car in pristine condition at the end of the lease gives me an anxiety attack.
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