More crucial-Treating others w Midos vs Tznius dress?

amother

Scarlet

Tue, Feb 07 2017, 4:20 pm

As humans, we all have our pluses and minuses, strengths and weaknesses.

Yes, its hard for humans to guess what Hashem considers good in Tznius or Moidos, but imho some women are great at both Midos and Tznius, and thats great, and some arent that great in either. Some are better in Tznius than Midos, and some are better at Midos than Tznius.

Imho anyone who maintains Tznius levels of their schools and family are doing well in Tznius. Expectations would be somewhat different for a girl who went to, for instance, Shulamis or Sterns, or Bais Yaakov, than a Chassidish girl.

For those who feel that its none of anyone's business to judge others' Midos or Tznius, feel free to move on to another thread.

Is there any discussion of this question in Seforim, and in YOUR opinion, does Hashem prefer those who are more medakdek (cautious) with their Tznius or those who are more medakdek (cautious) with their Midos?

I meant to change the what does Hashem prefer in the poll to what is preferable, but cant change it.

cnc

Tue, Feb 07 2017, 4:27 pm

Put it this way, Yom Kipur can be mechaper for bein Adam lmakom but not bein Adam lChaveiro. Unless you specifically receive mechilah from the person you wronged .

That said, there is no reason I can't work on both simultaneously.

Blessing1

Tue, Feb 07 2017, 4:29 pm

We can't know what Hashem "prefers" in women, probably both.
But tzenios is a mitzvah specifically for women so I would go with tzenios.
Mitzvos & middos are 2 different things...

treestump

Tue, Feb 07 2017, 4:35 pm

Middos, without a doubt.

Because, guess what?

Tznius is a middah.

Unfortunately it has been reduced today to measurements and superficial evaluation, which is contrary to what tznius is supposed to be.

But if you're referring to what we call tznius today, I would still go with middos. Because the tznius of today - is superficial and external. One can always wear longer skirts and looser tops. But good middos is something entrenched and ingrained in a person, and affects the entire way they live their life, relate to other people, their family and the world, and conduct themselves. It affects every part of a person's life.

Last edited by treestump on Tue, Feb 07 2017, 4:36 pm; edited 1 time in total

studying_torah

Tue, Feb 07 2017, 4:35 pm

Didn't Avraham avinu specify a girl with good middos, because she can learn the rest? And rivkah displayed middos tovOs with the water.
Seems to me middos is more important.

dimyona

Tue, Feb 07 2017, 4:41 pm

Bad middos can mean violating so many d'oraisas about honesty, v'ahavta l'reiacha kamocha, onaas devorim, etc.

Tznius, especially as it relates to clothing rules, are a much later development and primarily a social norm. You won't find much about this in the chamisha chumshei torah.

To me it's a no brainer.

amother

Dodgerblue

Tue, Feb 07 2017, 4:52 pm

treestump wrote:

I was going to say the same thing. Tznius - modesty is a midda.
Its about the way a women holds herself. The way she walks and talks. Its about not drawing attention to herself... it became all about inches and lenths and necklines somehow....

dimyona

Tue, Feb 07 2017, 5:02 pm

amother wrote:

Didn't read all posts. But can't say this more,
Chetzonios shows a persons penemius!

Except when it doesn't Smile

. I can think of several very modestly dressed women that are among the most cruel, selfish, and judgemental people I know. And vice versa.

amother

Lilac

Tue, Feb 07 2017, 5:06 pm

I refuse to vote. What a ridiculous question. No human can make the chesbonos of Hashem. Both mitzvos are important, and your schar is according to your effort. I am afraid people picking one over the other rationalizes their unscrupulousness on the other. Both are important. A Jew can never belittle a mitzva, for we are practically ants compared to Hashem's wisdom.

amother

Silver

Tue, Feb 07 2017, 5:29 pm

Our job is to work on our middos and use them in the right way. Tznius being one of those.

That said, I remember learning in school that a woman's yiras shamayim is her tznius.

agreer

Tue, Feb 07 2017, 5:30 pm

I also found this question odd, but I voted b/c I think I know what the OP is trying to get at.

However, I'm so sick of people using middos as an excuse for their lack of tznius..

People are so quick to point out that you can have a women dressed in a mid-length skirt, high neck, sleeves till the wrist who will cut in line, talk lashon hara, etc, while a woman wearing a tight short skirt and revealing her collar bone does the most chessed in the world...Isn't the one with better middos the better person?

Guess what...They BOTH need work, and I can't say that H' "prefers" one woman over the other. Hashem wants everyone to be better in tznius and in middos.

GreenEyes26

Tue, Feb 07 2017, 5:38 pm

I thought this thread was hilarious - OF COURSE middot are better than tzniut - but wow, a lot of you are really taking this seriously.

No one's talking about streetwalkers here. OF COURSE being a good person with a good character is more important than how long your skirt is.

(I am including carrying yourself with a sense of modesty and dignity as part of a "good character".)

Honestly, though, I don't think I'm the audience here. This question is aimed at a community where wearing skirts 4" below your knee is held to the same regard as keeping Shabbos.

amother

Aubergine

Tue, Feb 07 2017, 6:15 pm

Isn't there fairly reasonable agreement as to what is good Middos and it is not specific to any specific group. Is there something that would be considered good Middos by a Hassid and not be a MO or vice versa? I ask sincerely? Just by way of example.

I think there is a much wider range of what is considered tznious as obviously a tzunias MO woman would have much more leeway in terms of dressing tzunias than a Chassid (again just an example and not a value judgment).

I would consider most well dressed business woman who are secular to be dressed tzunias. Certainly Michelle Obama, whatever you thought of her, always dressed in what I would considered to be a "modest" respectable fashion despite showing her arms and wearing shorts or other casual sports clothing when appropriate. Ivanka Trump's business outfits are also what I would consider to be respectable despite their being often sleeveless and often at the knee. Certainly no one would possibly look at these women and think they are ever dressed inappropriately or disrespectfully for the occasion.

amother

Royalblue

Tue, Feb 07 2017, 6:18 pm

dimyona wrote:

Except when it doesn't Smile

. I can think of several very modestly dressed women that are among the most cruel, selfish, and judgemental people I know. And vice versa.

Also people who dress completely tznius for social reasons yet are irreligious in private.