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Forum
-> Interesting Discussions
What does Hashem prefer, women w amazing Midos or Tznius?
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| Midos |
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83% |
[ 130 ] |
| Tznius |
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16% |
[ 25 ] |
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| Total Votes : 155 |
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livinginflatbus
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 Tue, Feb 07 2017, 6:24 pm
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One has nothing to do with the next . Immodestly dressed people don't do more chesed and tznius woman aren't meaner and not nice people. We all have to do the best we can in both but assumptions like the outside reflects the inside and stuff like that are plain silly even if they do apply in some cases .
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amother
Yellow
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Tue, Feb 07 2017, 6:32 pm
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There are ppl who are extremely makpid on the 4 inches etc.. consider it halacha and look down upon those who don't. That is bad middos. The rest of us who respect other yiden, are growing ppl and trying to do their best than focus on what needs more work. My tznius is ok with me. I cover up, dress refined and am naturally shy but I yell and shut ppl out and have a hard time sharing myself with others so I am focusing right now on my middos.
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PinkFridge
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Tue, Feb 07 2017, 6:48 pm
| amother wrote: | Didn't read all posts. But can't say this more,
Chetzonios shows a persons penemius! |
That may be true.
But after every tznius gathering I've been to with my dd, I tell them, yes, we are in a community/school system that teaches hair, knees, elbows, collarbones, no pants, and I believe this is optimal, but then remind them about a friend they know who doesn't follow the rules as we do - she doesn't cover her hair and wears pants, but otoh she wasn't born frum and is now shomer Shabbos - but because of her very pure and totally unprovocative nature, she is a very, very tzniusdik woman. And a tremendous baalas chesed.
Last edited by PinkFridge on Tue, Feb 07 2017, 6:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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amother
Green
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Tue, Feb 07 2017, 6:52 pm
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Didn't read through the thread so sorry if this is repetitive, but tznius is midda. So if you have 'good middos,' you are also tzanua.
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amother
Scarlet
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Tue, Feb 07 2017, 7:48 pm
| amother wrote: | Didn't read all posts. But can't say this more,
Chetzonios shows a persons penemius! |
Really??? This answer shocks me.
Is anyone naive enough to think that the more Tzniusdik a person is, the better their Midos, and Tznius is a gauge of Midos? Soooooo NOT!
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ectomorph
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Tue, Feb 07 2017, 7:53 pm
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Everyone is judged on their own nisyonos. I don't judge people for either one.
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FranticFrummie
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Tue, Feb 07 2017, 8:19 pm
I can't even believe this is a question. Do you really think that everyone in a burqa is a better person than we are? Anyone can throw a sheet over their head and be tznius.
It takes serious hard work to improve ourselves on the inside, and it's an ongoing, life long struggle against our yetzer hara. I'd rather have good middos, any day.
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chicco
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Tue, Feb 07 2017, 9:25 pm
Derech eretz kadma litorah.
This is all middos, including tsnius. Derech erertz is respect. Not just for others, but for oneself as well. Tsnius is a direct toldeh of derech eretz. The true middah of tsnius is a sense of appropriateness. The measurements that we have learned to delineate what woman should be careful with in terms of clothing is not the middah of tsnius. It is an off shoot of it, but in no way the full middah.
Tsnius is an overall behavior of women and MEN. It is how one carries his or herself and how one interacts with others. It is not strictly not calling attention to oneself. It's mostly a sense of appropriateness, in speech and in action.
Yes it is not tsnius to dress inappropriately. Just as it is not tsnius to broadcast all aspects of your life on the Internet. Just like it would be inappropriate to stand up on a public bench and call to your friend across the street. It's a behavior of refinement. Amazing how the queen of England can get this concept more than girls who've been taught about tsnius from birth. But in their defense, all that is spewed on the subject is measurements. What a crying shame.
Either way, I digress. I don't understand the point of this thread other than to defend poor tsnius in favor of other middos. I have news though, someone who has wonderful middos, regardless of their tsnius standard, is probably more concerned with doing his or her best than thinking they are better than those who have good "tsnius" but poor middos.
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eschaya
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Tue, Feb 07 2017, 9:27 pm
Like others having mentioned, tznius in comportment is a midda.
But if we were able to separate them... all I can say is that if I had to live with someone with 1 to the exclusion of the other, I'd take middos any day.
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melalyse
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Tue, Feb 07 2017, 10:03 pm
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I feel like this is the same question as what is preferable Shabbos or Kashrut. Good Middos affects other people so it is very important, but as far as someones relationship with Hashem this is not a question.
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Laughing Bag!
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Tue, Feb 07 2017, 10:10 pm
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I Didn't vote because I think both are important to Hashem. Although it says DERECH ERETZ KODMA LATORAH its for everyone! Women however do have that special Mitzvah for ourself that is Tznius. So I say it's not one or the other. Both!
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amother
Scarlet
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Tue, Feb 07 2017, 10:20 pm
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Some think its an equally hard Nisayon for some to stop oneself from embarrassing/humiliating/harming others than stopping oneself from wearing a skirt an inch or two shorter than what their community wears, and equal in importance?
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iammom
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Tue, Feb 07 2017, 10:35 pm
It's apples to oranges. It's like comparing which is worse between killing or adultry - they are both bad.
Everyone should strive to have good middos and to be tzniut.
There's no way to answer the poll.
Also tznius isn't exclusive to women. Men are obligated just as well (though in diff ways).
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amother
Babyblue
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Tue, Feb 07 2017, 10:40 pm
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A women with good Midos will dress with Tznius!
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amother
Scarlet
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Tue, Feb 07 2017, 10:47 pm
| amother wrote: | | A women with good Midos will dress with Tznius! |
Perhaps, but not all Tznius dressed women treat others with good Midos.
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amother
Ivory
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Tue, Feb 07 2017, 11:47 pm
| amother wrote: | | Perhaps, but not all Tznius dressed women treat others with good Midos. |
Then those women aren't truly tznius! They're just dressing a certain way. Tznius is a whole lot more than just throwing on clothing that cover adequately. It's just as internal as any other middah.
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5mom
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Wed, Feb 08 2017, 1:09 am
To the extent that we can know the will of Hashem, it is expressed in Torah and Chazal. Clearly good behavior outranks a dress code. Not even close.
Here's a sociological observation.
The obsession with tznius as a woman's primary mitzvah is fairly recent, and I think it's based on a few different things:
1. Changes in women's clothing in general. A hundred years ago, no one was wearing shorts and tank tops. Jewish women wore whatever was worn in larger society. As that changed, it became necessary to discuss what constitutes appropriate dress.
2. Needing rules for everything. Again, a hundred years ago, people more or less did what their parents had done. (See articles by Haym Sokoveitchik and Moshe Koppel for more.) Traditional society was disrupted by both positive and negative forces - the destruction of European Jewry, the affluence of postwar life, the rise of the baal teshuva movement. Suddenly, people depended on books rather than personal example to tell them how to lead their lives. And so you get tznius guides and the four inch rule. (Similar things exist in other areas of halacha.)
3. The rise of kollel. When you had multiple ways of being a good Jew, women's religious life was as good as anyone's. Once the ideal male role was reduced to learning, from which women were excluded, you needed something for women. That something became tznius. All of a sudden, girls were being taught that this was their main Avoda.
4. Unacknowledged feminism. In a culture that excludes women from many roles, women insisted on finding something they could claim as their own. We can't talk too much about taharas hamishpacha in public, so tznius became the rallying point. Clearly it's not enough, as amen parties and group hafrashas challah and the like have sprung up too, but I have no doubt that women are looking for ways to express themselves as Jews.
My humble (modest) opinion.
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amother
Scarlet
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Wed, Feb 08 2017, 1:28 am
| 5mom wrote: | To the extent that we can know the will of Hashem, it is expressed in Torah and Chazal. Clearly good behavior outranks a dress code. Not even close.
Here's a sociological observation.
The obsession with tznius as a woman's primary mitzvah is fairly recent, and I think it's based on a few different things:
2. Needing rules for everything. Again, a hundred years ago, people more or less did what their parents had done. (See articles by Haym Sokoveitchik and Moshe Koppel for more.) Traditional society was disrupted by both positive and negative forces - the destruction of European Jewry, the affluence of postwar life, the rise of the baal teshuva movement. Suddenly, people depended on books rather than personal example to tell them how to lead their lives. And so you get tznius guides and the four inch rule. (Similar things exist in other areas of halacha.) . |
Interesting thought. Somehow from what Ive read I can't picture either Sara Schnierer or Heilege Rebbitzens in Europe walking around with dreaded rulers to measure 4 inches on girls and Women's bodies.
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salt
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Wed, Feb 08 2017, 1:48 am
What a ridiculous question. Why do you need to choose one over the other? It only makes sense to ask which is preferable if you can only choose one?
Like the poster who said what is better Shabbat or kosher? Why would you need to choose one?
Silly question, can't believe so many people are thinking about it so hard about it.
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