OU Responsum about female rabbis

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Volunteer

Wed, Feb 08 2017, 12:24 pm

The OU issued a responsum explaining their stance on female clergy, yoatzot halacha, and what roles are open to women in the synagogue.

Responses of OU Rabbinic Panel

Opinions, comments, questions...?

Do you agree or disagree with the authors' conclusions and reasoning?
What impact do you think this paper will have on the Modern Orthodox communikty, and the Jewish community as a whole?

tichellady

Wed, Feb 08 2017, 12:34 pm

The whole thing was unnecessary and rather divisive and came at a time when we are facing actual issues that the ou doesn't seem interested in addressing. this just solidified for me how irrelevant the ou is.

Last edited by tichellady on Wed, Feb 08 2017, 1:06 pm; edited 1 time in total

etky

Wed, Feb 08 2017, 12:54 pm

I don't agree with the OU's position but I understand the reasons they are pushing back against the phenomenon of women's ordination.
I think the time is soon approaching when there will be a split within the MO community on the backdrop of gender issues,between 'traditionalists' and those who seek progress on inclusivity.
The other major fault line regarding this issue is, of course, partnership/egalitarian minyanim.
I think the OU should have refrained from publishing this responsum and left the issue of women's ordination and clergy roles up to individual communities/schools/organizations.
I think the issue of egalitarian prayer services is inherently much more divisive from both a communal and halachic perspective.

lifesagift

Wed, Feb 08 2017, 2:51 pm

Not in the mood of reading the whole thing but it seems he's repeating the idea that there is no precedent for a woman leader in the Torah? What about Deborah? N Esther? I'm not going against the ou but I'm truly curious

amother

Beige

Wed, Feb 08 2017, 2:59 pm

Anyone want to summarize the OU's position? (Pretty please??)

Aylat

Wed, Feb 08 2017, 4:06 pm

I thought the OU position was straightforward and completely non-controversial.

Women should not hold title of clergy or be in a role that is equivalent of a shul rabbi (even if no clerical title).
Women should be encouraged and welcomed to participate actively in the community: education, prayer, pastoral, administrative etc.
Yoatzot - ambivalent. Advantages and disadvantages, individual to every community and family.

ETA that's a bottom-line summary without their reasoning and worldview. For that, you'll have to read it yourself.

Last edited by Aylat on Wed, Feb 08 2017, 4:08 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Denim

Wed, Feb 08 2017, 4:07 pm

amother wrote:

Anyone want to summarize the OU's position? (Pretty please??)

In a nutshell, the obvious! That the concept of female clergy etc. is against the Torah.
And while we're at it, can we call a spade a spade! Whats with this whole sugar coating heresy? "Traditionalists vs Culturally Progressed.. Just say it how it is - Torah M'Sinai vs. Man made religion. This whole OO movement is a short hop away from making bark mitzvah's.

causemommysaid

Wed, Feb 08 2017, 4:11 pm

tichellady wrote:

This. I found the whole thing in poor taste. It wont impact anyone who has their mind made up anyway.

SixOfWands

Wed, Feb 08 2017, 4:21 pm

amother wrote:

Lovely of you to attack anonymously. Not to mention equating women learning at a high level with dogs. Do you say that to your daughters -- honey, its nice that you did well on your chumash test, but honestly, to me, that makes you look like you squat and poop outside. Now go try on some pretty dresses like you should.

In any case, many rabbis disagree with you.

https://static1.squarespace.co.....h.pdf

https://moderntoraleadership.w.....s-cl/

https://static1.squarespace.co.....h.pdf

https://static1.squarespace.co.....h.pdf

In the past, opposition has focused on the fact that women haven't had these roles before, and therefore they shouldn't now although there is no halachic bar.

dancingqueen

Wed, Feb 08 2017, 4:36 pm

Aylat wrote:

I completely don't understand their ambivalence to yoatzot.

treestump

Wed, Feb 08 2017, 4:37 pm

amother wrote:

Where in the Torah does it say that women can't be clergy?

princessleah

Wed, Feb 08 2017, 4:49 pm

etky wrote:

Just to clarify, partnership minyanim are NOT egalitarian. Egalitarian means no difference between men and women: I.e., women are counted in the minyan, there is no mechitza, women do all the things in services that men do like get an aliyah, leyn, lead shacharit and musaf. Many Conservative and all Reform shuls are egalitarian.

Partnership minyanim let women participate in ways that are halachically approved by an Orthodox Rabbi, such as lead psukei dizimrah, leyn. They DO NOT lead anything with kaddish/kedusha being said, they are not counted in the minyan and there is a mechitza. Don't equate the two. It might not be mainstream but it is still under the auspices of an Orthodox Rabbi.

princessleah

Wed, Feb 08 2017, 4:52 pm

Here is a statement written by an MO/OO Rabbi in response:

Quote:

I was invited this past summer to participate in one of the forum discussions put together by the OU to speak with the Rabbinic Panel that the OU charged with providing guidelines regarding women's spiritual leadership in Shuls. Forum participants were also invited to submit a short written statement to the Rabbinic Panel. As the OU decision on this issue has recently been issued, I have decided to publicly share my written submission:

Esteemed Rabbonim and Rashei Yeshiva,

Thank you for taking the time to listen to the perspectives of Rabbonim and other Jewish leaders representing Modern Orthodox communities across the country. Having the poskim interact and engaging with community leaders out in the field is an important exercise that I hope will continue regularly without the need necessarily for a specific ruling or psak. We have what to learn and mutually gain from that interaction.

The reality is that the presence of a learned woman functioning professionally would greatly enhance Torah observance within my shul. These are a few of the areas that I believe my shul and many other shuls similar to mine would benefit from by having the right woman involved in some capacity ultimately bringing people closer to Torah:

· Working with kallot and being there for women throughout marriage as it relates to areas of taharat hamishpacha.

· Supporting and guiding female conversion candidates, especially in light of the fact that 78 percent of conversion candidates are women, according to the RCA GPS conversion survey.

· Having a leader in the women’s section during services who can be a role model and support for those who want it.

· Pastorally, to give an embrace to a female mourner to provide comfort in ways that I cannot give as I would to a male.

· Having women who are able to teach high-level Torah in our local modern orthodox day school, serving as a role model to our girls and showing both girls and boys that women can be serious Torah scholars.

I also have a concern with how this decision will be used. I fear a forthcoming schism within our broader community over this issue. There will be those that are looking for the opportunity to use this decision to write large segments from our community out of Orthodoxy. There may be shuls that will fall on different sides of this ruling based on their current practices even though they send their kids to the same schools, summer camps and marry into each other’s families. This is the same community. Artificially splitting our community would not only be sad but in my opinion very harmful for the future of Orthodoxy in America.

B'chavod,

Adam Starr

Rabbi, Young Israel of Toco Hills Atlanta

lifesagift

Wed, Feb 08 2017, 5:18 pm

Princess Leah, r any of these suggestions against the Torah?

princessleah

Wed, Feb 08 2017, 5:53 pm

lifesagift wrote:

Princess Leah, r any of these suggestions against the Torah?

amother

Pewter

Wed, Feb 08 2017, 8:37 pm

I just don't understand the current obsession on what women should and shouldn't do, should and shouldn't want, how they should act and what they should feel, etc all from the perspective of a group of males who don't necessarily have women's best interest in mind.
There are so many other issues arguing our communities these days... why the obsession with women? Can they focus elsewhere for a while please? And when there does need to be a discussion on the roles of women in orthodox judaism, it would probably be a good idea to include (leaned) women in the discussion.

iluvy

Wed, Feb 08 2017, 10:06 pm

amother wrote:

And when there does need to be a discussion on the roles of women in orthodox judaism, it would probably be a good idea to include (learned) women in the discussion.

amother

Scarlet

Wed, Feb 08 2017, 10:07 pm

amother wrote:

There are so many other issues arguing our communities these days... why the obsession with women? Can they focus elsewhere for a while please? And when there does need to be a discussion on the roles of women in orthodox judaism, it would probably be a good idea to include (leaned) women in the discussion.

Why shouldn't fat women also have a say?

etky

Thu, Feb 09 2017, 12:31 am

princessleah wrote:

I am aware of the distinction between egalitarian and partnership minyanim. The reason I grouped them together is that even partnership minyanim that consider themselves halachic and within orthodoxy by adhering to the parameters that you listed are on the margins of orthodoxy and while some may be under the auspices of an orthodox rabbi (in Israel most are not btw, they typically have a members' committee that decides halachic issues) they are still a matter of extreme contention within MO.
I'd also point out that in Israel the distinction bt. partnership and egalitarian minyanim is a lot less rigid. You have many more permutations including minyanim where women are counted for a minyan but still do not lead portions of the service that are "dvarim she-bkdushah", minyanim where women do layn with an aliya + the brachot but there is still gender separation with a mehitza etc. The common denominator however is that all are well outside of the the DL/MO mainstream here.

Miri7

Thu, Feb 09 2017, 12:57 am

Regarding the part about the yoetzot: there is nothing my local rabbi can do to make me as comfortable asking my TH questions of him as I am in discussing those with a yoetzet. The one change would be if he were female. Just saying. And no, I'm not handing over my underpants to his wife, who is a dear friend. Just, no.

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