OU Responsum about female rabbis

smile12345

Thu, Feb 09 2017, 11:13 am

cm wrote:

But does that mean they cannot be serious scholars? And if they are, why not acknowledge them as such?

But why the title Rabbi? That is a male title and calling a lady that smacks of feminism undertones.

I know of a very learned women who learns many sefarim and is constantly giving shiurim to women and seminary girls. But, she has no interest in being called Rabbi - since that has nothing to do with learning, but everything to do with modern culture and blurred gender roles.

Thu, Feb 09 2017, 11:47 am

smile12345 wrote:

But why the title Rabbi? That is a male title and calling a lady that smacks of feminism undertones.

Or Rabbah, or Maharat. As to why - see my previous post. It's about professional opportunities as well as appropriate respect.

Yes, I'm a feminist. I believe men and women should be accorded equal pay, professional opportunities and acknowledgement for their accomplishments. I don't see how any of this is against the Torah.

If you think women should be paid less than men with the same education doing the same jobs, and should be fired for getting married or pregnant, or should be patronized and denied opportunities for advancement at work, then fine, don't be a feminist.

Aylat

Thu, Feb 09 2017, 11:50 am

cm wrote:

I call straw man (woman? gender neutral person?).

BrachaBatya

Thu, Feb 09 2017, 11:57 am

I am in a minority here but I believe women should have the same professional opportunities as men in the Jewish world and that includes the title of rabbi. Look outside the Orthodox world! There are hundreds/thousands (?) of Conservative, Renewal, Reconstructionist, Reform rabbis and they are BRILLIANT. And LEARNED. Yes, they are different from the mainstream Orthodox women in personal practice. But they are brilliant, deeply learned Jewish women leaders. They are called RABBI. I respect them. I respect many kinds of Judaism and I respect women who are trained for many years to become rabbis, and earn their living as such.

[some content removed by Yael]

smile12345

Thu, Feb 09 2017, 12:01 pm

cm wrote:

This is has nothing to do with regular equal employment opportunities. Learning Torah is not supposed to be looked at as a 'profession' though since the biggest mitzvah for men is learning Torah and we do need Torah authorities to guide us then there are often positions based around it.

Let me ask you an honest question: In the communities where women are becoming professional Torah scholars, is there a big emphasis on limud Torah amongst the men?

Last edited by smile12345 on Thu, Feb 09 2017, 12:05 pm; edited 1 time in total

esther09

Thu, Feb 09 2017, 12:28 pm

ohmygosh wrote:

Like I previously wrote (if you would've read my post) is that I have no opinion on female roles since I DO NOT know the halacha. My point alone was that people's personal opinions do not dictate halacha, no matter how you want to spin it.

I did read your post. I guess I was giving you the benefit of the doubt and didn't realize your sole contribution was to chime in, say you don't know the Halacha, and then nitpick on how I worded my post (using the word "opinion").

So as not to offend anyone, I will rephrase. My "opinion" aside, it does not halachically state anywhere that a man must check my underwear.

...sheesh. Rolling Eyes

tigerwife

Thu, Feb 09 2017, 12:29 pm

Honestly, I could never understand these arguments. In the chareidi world, ironically, there are many women who earn the title of rebbitzen by their own merit. And what a merit- I find anyone who can take the time for Torah learning beyond all female responsibility astounding and amazing (like some women on this site, I really appreciate their Torah knowledge in some Torah-related threads- maybe one day when the toddlers are grown up I'll get there Wink

) It's only here that I see people define 'rebbitzen' as 'married to a rabbi'. The only difference I see is that a man with smicha and pasken and a woman cannot.

Please explain why this isn't just an ego issue. Men being paid more? I never knew a rabbinical position to be a lucrative job. Have you never heard a female lecturer on Torah topics? Just check out the women section of torahanytime.com.

Please explain how this isn't just about 'it isn't fair'.

esther09

Thu, Feb 09 2017, 12:40 pm

tigerwife wrote:

We're going back and forth. You're right - this is solely about the title. The coursework and training these women undertake is rigorous, and it's sad to me that so many women are so concerned about men's egos that they refuse to acknowledge that sometimes a woman can be equally knowledgeable or even MORE knowledgeable than a man in terms of Halacha.

I'm pretty sure that's what it boils down to. The title entitles you to a certain level of respect from men, and the members of the OU cannot perceive women as worthy as such. Zehu.

smile12345

Thu, Feb 09 2017, 12:41 pm

BrachaBatya wrote:

After reading your post and seeing the fact that it got liked I guess continuing this discussion is pointless.
I don't look at Conservative, Reform and the others you mentioned as Torah-true paths to Judaism and therefore wouldn't come close to calling them professional Torah scholars or G-d fearing Jews. We seem to have a very different definition of Torah Judaism, let alone the lesser important topic of female Rabbis.

SixOfWands

Thu, Feb 09 2017, 12:45 pm

smile12345 wrote:

Yes, the Torah and our very existence is clearly being threatened by these OO movements.
I am wholeheartedly happy to continue the mesorah the way Hashem set up the gender roles to be and see no need to be disconcerted or feel threatened by it just because modern day feminism dictates that I should be.

Please cite halachic sources for how Hashem set up gender roles in a manner that would not allow women to fulfill the role of "rabba." Not reading from Torah in the presence of a minyan, or leading a minyan in prayer, but learning the same things as men do in rabbinic school, giving pastoral counseling, and responding to halachic questions (such as "if my toddler dropped her cold milk into my meat pot, can it be kashered").

Please cite the Torah source that tells me that Hashem set up the world in a way that dictated that when my mother passed away, I had to ask all of my halachic questions of a man, and say kaddish for the first time without the support of a pastoral leader.

And while you're at it, please explain, in details and with examples, how "our" existence is threatened by a movement that at its heart merely wants to open its doors to everyone.

SixOfWands

Thu, Feb 09 2017, 12:49 pm

tigerwife wrote:

So, is your issue with the word "rabba"? You think that a woman can absolutely do everything that Yeshivat Maharat trains them to do. But they shouldn't all themselves "rabba" or "maharat."

Whats' the halachic basis for that? Are people creating a. Civil war within Modern Orhtodoxy over an English word?

amother

Amethyst

Thu, Feb 09 2017, 1:06 pm

amother wrote:

The gemara says "דעתות נשים קלות" which means that women's minds are weak. Who would want someone with a weak mind paskening their shailos.

Do you really believe that women's minds are weak? Do you not know brilliant women, insightful women? Women who are amazing lawyers, mathematicians, actuaries, doctors, etc., who have gone through rigorous academic programs and graduated with honors?

If you would learn the gemara inside, you would see that it is referring to Rav Shimon bar Yochai's wife - he didn't disclose his location because if the Romans would torture her, he was afraid she wouldn't have as much stamina as men to bear the torture. That is the context.

tigerwife

Thu, Feb 09 2017, 1:37 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

My question is why isn't rebbitzen enough? When did it become 'lesser' than 'rabbi'? I always understood it to be the female version, such as king and queen, waiter and waitress, etc.

What is the need for the term Rabba? You're right, it does seem to be an etymological war Very Happy

. Or, does the term 'Rabba' mean that the woman is also able to pasken halachic matters like a Dayan? For leadership positions, a rebbitzen seems to encompass all.

ETA Just reread your response and I must admit to not being familiar with Yeshiva Maharat. I am referring to women who didn't specifically 'go to school' for this, but they are nonetheless very learned and worthy of the title. Good middos also make up a large part of the equation.

tigerwife

Thu, Feb 09 2017, 1:42 pm

esther09 wrote:

I think in general men have an issue with recognizing that women can be greater than them, but that's a whole separate issue.

Thu, Feb 09 2017, 2:26 pm

tigerwife wrote:

My question is why isn't rebbitzen enough? When did it become 'lesser' than 'rabbi'? I always understood it to be the female version, such as king and queen, waiter and waitress, etc.

In many circles, "rebbetzin" is the honorary title for the rabbi's wife. In many (but not all) communities, if she is learned she is expected to give classes in addition to acting as the First Lady, all without remuneration.

amother

Slategray

Thu, Feb 09 2017, 2:27 pm

quote If you would learn the gemara inside, you would see that it is referring to Rav Shimon bar Yochai's wife - he didn't disclose his location because if the Romans would torture her, he was afraid she wouldn't have as much stamina as men to bear the torture. That is the context. quote

Yes, but you can see from the fact that the gemara chose to add the reason of "דעתות נשים קלות" and not just say that he was worried because she wouldnt be able to withstand the torture shows that there is a specific weakness by women when their feelings are involved which all men dont necessarily have (and all women do have).

Besides, this term is used throughout the gemara in many places. For example tosafos in masecta zvachim says that women should not shecht animals for this reason דעתות נשים קלות. tosafos in psachim also says that women should not do bedikas chametz because they will be negligent, and he quotes this reason דעתות נשים קלות. it is also brought down in SHULCHAN ORECH that 2 men are allowed to be alone with 1 lady but one man with 2 ladies is not allowed because they are easy to persuade (weak emotionally) for this reason דעתות נשים קלות.