My kids are so different than me

amother

Bisque

Fri, Feb 10 2017, 8:59 am

So I am naturally a very neat, organized person. Mentally I think in outlines and live by lists, and practically I like to have a neat, clean, mesudar environment. Dh, OTOH, is kind of messy and a bit ADD (he's brilliant, so he compensates beautifully). B'h we have a good marriage, and I can tolerate some of his messiness especially since I know he goes out of his way to do things that are not in his teva (ie, pick up his laundry from the floor) because he loves me and knows it matters to me.
Then enter my kids. They have inherited dh's genes entirely. So now I live in a household of slobs, and I am just not handling it. They seem to truly not recognize that we don't just toss everything on the floor as soon as we get into the house. They get into pjs by taking off their clothes wherever they happen to be and leaving the clothes/shoes/socks in trail along the household floor. They come home from piano lessons and dump the books on the stairs. They finish breakfast and leave their dirty plates on the table. They play "basketball" with their used socks and leave them hanging on the "target" (ie ceiling fan). Their backpacks and lunches and homework can literally be anywhere.
Now it's not like I haven't tried. I installed cubbies (labeled with their names) in the front closet for backpacks. Whenever I catch stuff about to be (or already) tossed on the floor I remind them to put it where it belongs. I put multiple laundry baskets in strategic locations throughout the house. I put a shoe basket in each room. Made cleanup charts. Etc. But nothing works.
And I'm the type of person who needs seder. So when my external environment is in chaos, my internal world becomes chaotic and I turn into a screaming mess. Eventually I just lose it and find myself shrieking. And I don't have cleaning help. I know if I were the type of woman who didn't mind messes or chaos, we'd all be fine. And if they inherited my genes and recognized the benefit in being mesudar, we'd be fine too. It's just that I now live in a house surrounded by a bunch of people who all live and think in a manner so different to me, that I'm suffering, and then it becomes unhealthy for them too.
And I spend my entire day (when they're home) just following everyone around and reminding them to clean up, or that floors are not laundry baskets, or that dirty plates belong in the sink, or that if I find the same toy on the dining room floor for the 6th time today it will go in the garbage etc. I'm afraid that my kids memories of growing up will be of me as the cleaning police, who occasionally has shrieking meltdowns when things get bad enough. I'm also afraid of how they will be successful adults (esp in marriage) when they literally cannot understand the benefit of neatness. (OMG, I can just imagine my future DILs wringing their hands about what kind of MIL did not teach her sons to clean!! I'm trying!! It's futile.) And then what to do about mental health?

Help!! Any advice?

mommy3b2c

Fri, Feb 10 2017, 9:29 am

My kids sound exactly the same. Some nights my heart literally pounds so hard, that my chest hurts. Yesterday my son dirtied his shirt while we were baking, (because my other son sprayed batter all over the kitchen, but that's another story) anyway, he insisted on a new shirt so I told him to get one . 5 minutes later I passed by his room. The armoire doors were opening, every single shirt was unfolded and half of them were on the floor, or hanging half way out of the closet. It took 1 minute to fix, but I felt so frustrated!!!!! Ahhhhh!!!!

I called my son and showed him what he did. I asked him the following, "imagine that every time you built a Lego set, 5 minutes later I broke it. So you built it again, and I broke it again. And I kept on doing it over and over.... How would you feel?" He said he would feel upset. So I explained to him that's exactly how I feel. I really hope he got the message.

I really have no answer. Just keep trying, repeating , explaining.... Hopefully it will eventually sink in.

dr. pepper

Fri, Feb 10 2017, 9:30 am

I feel for you. I must live in seder. It is a constant avodah to overlook the natural mess of a happy vibrant home full of children.
I have those kids that are naturally mesudar and those who do not understand the concept.
I work very hard to build in routines. And use natural consequences. DH jokes that I am going to raise horders b/c I throw out so much of their stuff.
But I often tell a child before they get ready for bed to put away 5-10 things in the kitchen/living room/ dining room area. And to make sure their stuff is away. ANd I WILL THROW OUT WHATS LEFT!
I have done it. Where it hurts. They usually get it.
Hatlzocha!
And one more thing.....get cleaning help. It won't solve the problem, but it will alleviate it.

gp2.0

Fri, Feb 10 2017, 9:36 am

How old are your kids?

Kids from age 1-5 I'd just keep reminding gently to put stuff where it belongs, maybe promising a small reward if they do it, and if they don't do it I'd pick up after them.

Kids age 6-12 I'd do the same thing, but in addition to offering rewards there would be a small consequence for not doing it. And then I'd pick up after them.

Kids older than 12 can get a reminder but that's it. No rewards. No consequences. The natural consequences of dumping their stuff everywhere will be that they cant find it when they need it.

Don't clean up all day if it makes you crazy. Clean only at night when they're asleep, or another time when they're not around.

amother

Amethyst

Fri, Feb 10 2017, 9:40 am

Reading this with interest, as I am the opposite. I am messy, my husband a bit OCD and neat, and one of my kids is like him. I'm not a dirty person, mind you, just chilled and a little cluttered/messy. Things aren't dirty, there's just stuff out. I try for dh's sake to be a bit neater, but I have a hard time relating to my daughter. She takes life so seriously as dh does and I try so hard to get her to chill a little. I'm not saying let loose completely, and I do have rules, etc.

I just see how the personality manifests itself into other areas of her life and I have a hard time relating. My son is chilled like me and he rolls with the punches a lot better when things go wrong. My daughter is so stressed about everything going right she doesn't know how to laugh at a situation. I don't think it's just organized vs neat, it's a whole personality and I try hard to understand, empathize, but also to get her to relax!!

amother

Bisque

Fri, Feb 10 2017, 9:44 am

Thanks for all your replies.
I guess I do need to make room in the budget for cleaning, just for my own mental sanity (it won't fix the kids' problem though).
If it makes a difference, my kids are ages 4-12. I hate to say it, but I've been pushing off getting pregnant for many reasons, but I know this definitely plays a part. I literally cannot handle another person like this in my life! And when I'm pregnant there will be no way I can stay on top of the mess (not like I'm so successful now) which will make my mental health even worse! (don't worry, there are other issues for my holding off as well).
Mommy2b2c, I like the lego analogy (we have a chronic lego hurricane in my house...) and I'm going to use it. And your clothing story... it's the story of my life!! I almost want to do the extra work of getting clean clothing for my kids, because when my boys go rooting around the pile of neatly folded pants to find the ones they want... there no longer exists a pile of neatly folded pants!! AAAAHHHhhh. And I try to hold in my anger, but every few times I lose control and yell.
And then I hate myself for losing my temper.

mommy3b2c

Fri, Feb 10 2017, 9:54 am

gp2.0 wrote:

Your advice is great on theory , but realistically how does it work?

I should let dirty underwear stay on my kitchen floor for a week?

Ketchup stains on the wall?

Lego pieces all over the house for the baby to eat?

Push comes to shove, I clean it. Otherwise I would have a nervous breakdown.

mommy3b2c

Fri, Feb 10 2017, 9:58 am

amother wrote:

Tell me about it. And I usually do prepare their clothes, because I can't deal with the mess. But yesterday my hands were covered in cake batter. When you lose control and yell , don't hate yourself. It's pointless. Apologize to them and tell them that while you definitely shouldn't yell, you are also a human and you make mistakes . Then explain why you yelled. Ask them if they can try not to do the things that upset you because your a person to. And just like they don't deserve to be yelled at, you don't deserve to have clothing strewn around your house that you work so hard to clean.

zaq

Fri, Feb 10 2017, 10:00 am

I feel you, as the expression goes.

You didn't say anything about your financial situation. Do you not have help because you can't afford it, because you feel that it's slightly immoral to have other people do your dirty work, or because you don't like the idea of a stranger in your home? If you are a product of a socialist upbringing and think having help is immoral, do you feel it's immoral to have someone fix your car, paint your house, cut your hair or remove your appendix? Having household help is no less moral than any of these. If you are uncomfortable with the loss of privacy, consider which makes you more miserable: a stranger in your home, or living in perpetual chaos? One will make you uncomfortable for--what? several hours a week? The other will drive you to the brink of madness.

Don't dismiss the importance of respite, however brief it may be. With only part-time help your house will quickly revert to tohu vavohu, yes. BUT---even if you have help for all of half a day once in two weeks, that brief island of sanity will "restoreth your soul". No matter how messy your home gets, you will have the comfort of knowing that in X days order will be restored. Furthermore, a home that is straightened out on a regular basis, however infrequent that may be, will never reach the depths of disorder that typifies a home that is never straightened out at all.

If money is an object, brainstorm ways to make household help possible. Is there anything you can make and sell, or any service you can provide to earn the money? Is there any small luxury you can give up to pay for it? Maybe you can barter with someone: you bake her challahs and she cleans your house. maybe you and a friend take turns team-cleaning each other's houses.

have you had your children tested for attention disorders? If they in fact have ADD, they need to have someone work with them to enable them to compensate for their scattered tendencies. And maybe, just maybe, you can use some help learning how to relax and be less resistant to the mess. You don't have to become a slob yourself, and you may not find total inner serenity, but you might be somewhat less miserable if you learned to relax your standards just a little.

Good luck.

amother

Ivory

Fri, Feb 10 2017, 10:01 am

Your kids are old enough to experience the natural consequences. (except maybe the 4 yr old)
Do you follow through with your threats? (throwing toys on the floor in garbage) because if not, whatever you say has no significance whatsoever.
Start following through with your threats. A toy can be bought again, but teaching children for life is a one time chance.
What I started doing is as follows.... if laundry wasn't in the bins, they were not going to be washed. Toys on the floor after a few warnings were thrown away. Food didn't get served until the table was clean. So yes, I left the dirty laundry all over the house and some kids went to school with dirty laundry, and the table was not cleaned off at night, and expensive toys were thrown away.
All it took was 2 weeks!!! And boy did my kids learn. Natural consequence is best. Allow them to learn life. You cleaning after them is not only not going to not teach them, but it takes away the ability for natural consequences to take place, which is the best teacher.
So for a few days or weeks your house will be Topsy turvy, allow that to happen. It's important for your kids. And hopefully very temporary.

mommy3b2c

Fri, Feb 10 2017, 10:05 am

amother wrote:

I wish I could do this. But I just can't. Just like I would lose my sanity from having a disguising dirty house, I think I would go crazy if my kids went to shool in dirty clothing. I don't even let them wear the same pajamas for two nights in a row. And I Just can't bring myself to throw out hundreds of dollars of toys.

gp2.0

Fri, Feb 10 2017, 11:03 am

mommy3b2c wrote:

Realistically it works as follows:

Age 1-5: reward with a mitzvah note, with a small nosh, with special cuddle time, an extra book at bedtime.

Age 6-12: reward with a small nosh, special cuddle time, extra book, extra 5 minutes of playtime before bed or special small activity/toy/craft. Small consequence along the same lines - no nosh, no extra book, no extra playtime, etc.

Age 12+: If toys stay on the floor, they disappear. I wouldn't actually throw toys out - what a waste of money - I'd just make them disappear into a bin in the garage/storage room or a high shelf. I'd tell the kids their toys are gone and can be earned back with good behavior - like picking up other toys off the floor.

Laundry is trickier. I wouldn't dream of making my kids go to school with dirty clothes either. The hope is that by age 12+ they've been practicing routines long enough that throwing laundry in the hamper becomes a routine that they don't think twice about. Maybe a natural consequence for a 12+ year old - who leaves clothing on the floor that I have to pick up - would have to help me with laundry when I wash it, shlepping it to the machine, folding it, etc. The natural consequence here is that if I spend extra time picking up the clothes, the 12+ year old has to spend extra time helping me clean/put away the clothes.

But for the most part, positive reinforcement works better than negative reinforcement. Like I'd rather say "I'd love to play a game with you but I can't because the floor is a mess." instead of saying "If you clean up the floor then I'll play a game with you." You're saying the same thing but the kids get a different message when you say it differently. Even with small consequences, saying it differently makes a difference. "If you don't hang up your coat, you're not getting a nosh" is different than "I bought you a great nosh but I can't give it to you because your coat is on the floor." and saying "If you don't put away those legos, they're going into the garbage!" is different than, "Ooh legos are fun. I really don't want to make them disappear so I hope they all get put away."

DVOM

Fri, Feb 10 2017, 11:42 am

I'm following this thread with interest... I'm also a pretty neat and organized person, though not to the extent op described. Any while my kids, like any kids, are naturally messy they are teachable. At this point everyone knows to hang up their knapsacks and coats, put their shoes in the bin, put their plate in the sink, stuff like that. I also didn't have cleaning help until very recently (this week was the first time... op, you have to try it. It is literally nirvana.) and I still don't have many hours a week.

I love the lego analogy. Totally going to use that.

Here's something that helps me. I really want to enjoy my kids and if I'm constantly itching to clean up after them that just doesn't happen. I set a mental timer for myself. No tidying up until after dinner time. Or on shabbos morning, no tidying up until the baby goes in for a nap. During that time I really do ignore everything I can, including ketchup splashed on the wall or underwear on the kitchen floor. Then my kids and I 'reset' the house together. I try to give them jobs that they enjoy, while I do the other stuff. My boys all like scrubbing with water, so they do the walls, toilets, dishes, floors, while I usually pick things up and put them away. This has gone a very long way to making me a calmer mom.

amother

Bisque

Fri, Feb 10 2017, 1:14 pm

Zaq - my not having housekeeping is probably a combination of both. I'm pretty frugal and we try to live within our means. I also hate having someone in the house, and the few times I've had someone I end up cleaning for the cleaning lady, and feel guilty when someone is cleaning in my house and feel the need to do the same along her. But there IS room (ok, like a closet) in the budget for cleaning help... I just need to overcome my parsimonious nature and do it.

With regard to natural consequences, or taking away toys... I have done it. I DO follow my word, and I can say proudly that many thousands of tiny legos have sat in my room for a week after some boys neglected to clean them up.
But my problem is less about cleaning up their toys and more about their natural shedding of items and objects that are essential to their person. When there is a mess of toys on the floor in their room, I will sometimes turn on the timer, provide an incentive and time frame, and they can and willingly clean up the identified toy/game. The bigger problem is that they just don't seem to "see" that shoes, socks, pjs, paper, backpacks, pencils, rubber bands, etc constitute a mess as well. They will look at me blankly when I ask that everything that does not belong on the living room floor be picked up. When I point out their shoes, they will be like, "huh? why shouldn't shoes be on the floor?" (and they're right, on pair that they are currently using can be, but this is a situation where there its today's shoes, shabbos shoes from 2 days ago, a few slippers and then assorted socks - and I end up being the one to pick and and smell each one to determine whether they were clean ones or dirty. Ew!). They come home from school and literally undress throughout the house. When I point this out (nicely, "sweetie, do sweatshirts belong on the floor?") they are like, "huh? Oh, whoops." And dd (12) bless her soul, apologizes for this all the time as soon as I point it out, though she doesn't necessarily jump to fix her mess. But that makes me madder! Stop apologizing and just don't dump your entire day's worth of detritus on my kitchen floor!
How do I open their eyes? They really seem to have a cognitive inability to SEE mess.