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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 14 2017, 1:56 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
But let's talk about the conservative media under Obama. How often did they praise anything that he did?


Huh? My point has nothing to do with praising or criticizing individuals. My observation is that multiple conservative writers have discussed the need for a strong left-wing. Not only have I not seen that perspective echoed on the left, I've heard numerous calls to shut down conservative viewpoints.
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 14 2017, 2:08 pm
Squishy wrote:
Where are the conservatives rioting, setting limos on fire, looting small businesses, and boo hoo-ing on campus? Where is the safe space for conservatives? Where are the million conservatives marching with genitalia on their heads?


Nah, they were just calling Obama a "n1gger" and throwing excrement:







Oh, here's a good one:





And they protest at funerals for veterans. Yeah, Westboro Baptist. Because it sure wasn't mainstream liberals who were arrested. Witness the ZERO arrests at the Women's Marches. Zero. Never been anything like that.

Squishy wrote:

Where are the conservatives screaming storm troopers when Obama deported 2.8-million illegal immigrants? Where were the conservatives marching and stopping commerce when Obama issued his EOs that most of the country disagreed with?



They were cheering the deportantions. Liberals protested



And see above, again, for the kind manner in which conservatives treated Obama.

Squishy wrote:
Liberals should have sat back until he actually did something. They only marginalized themselves and destroyed any respect and legitimacy they had with their carrying on. Trying to justify their terror tactics with subsequent events doesn't work.

Civil unrest doesn't impress me - it scares me. Stifling free speech doesn't impress me - it scares me. Every single actual flaw and all the crazy imagined flaws attributed to Trump and his family doesn't scare me as much as the precedent that will be set if the mobs are successful. Our orderly system will be gone.


Terror tactics? Peaceful marches in support of women's rights are terror tactics?

Demanding an actual say in the review of nominees is terror tactics?
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 14 2017, 3:20 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
Terror tactics? Peaceful marches in support of women's rights are terror tactics?

Demanding an actual say in the review of nominees is terror tactics?


The right had some nut cases. The left is filled with nut cases who are out of touch what normal Americans want which is a good economy - not social engineering.

The looting, rioting, carrying on like two year olds because their candidate lost, and stifling free speech are not peaceful. No lies you repeat can make it so. No one wants this except for crazies who want to think they are relevant.

The tantrums delegitimize anything the left could possibly say.
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 14 2017, 3:37 pm
Squishy wrote:
The right had some nut cases. The left is filled with nut cases who are out of touch what normal Americans want which is a good economy - not social engineering.

The looting, rioting, carrying on like two year olds because their candidate lost, and stifling free speech are not peaceful. No lies you repeat can make it so. No one wants this except for crazies who want to think they are relevant.

The tantrums delegitimize anything the left could possibly say.


So the thousands upon thousands of people who protested against Obama, called him every vile name in the book, and attempted to delegitimize his presidency, were just a few nut cases.

The people yelling horrible things at minorities and claiming that they represent Trump's America, just a few nuts.

The 217 protesters who were arrested -- that's it -- who almost entirely are part of an anarchist group known as "black bloc" and not affiliated with the Democratic party or any mainstream liberal movement -- they represent all liberals.

The estimated 1 million people in the US who took place in Women's Marches with no arrests, irrelevant. Its the 217 black bloc that matter to you.

Trump's attempts to delegitimize media outlets like the NY Times and CNN if they don't present his version of events. His presentation of "alternative facts." his statements that there is "too much protection" in the First Amendment. That all supports free speech.

But people taking to the streets, well, that's chilling of free speech.

And I remind you, the majority of Americans who voted did not vote for Trump. Trump won. No question. But let's not play "what most Americans wanted." Because most Americans did not want Trump.
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 14 2017, 4:09 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
So the thousands upon thousands of people who protested against Obama, called him every vile name in the book, and attempted to delegitimize his presidency, were just a few nut cases.

The people yelling horrible things at minorities and claiming that they represent Trump's America, just a few nuts.

The 217 protesters who were arrested -- that's it -- who almost entirely are part of an anarchist group known as "black bloc" and not affiliated with the Democratic party or any mainstream liberal movement -- they represent all liberals.

The estimated 1 million people in the US who took place in Women's Marches with no arrests, irrelevant. Its the 217 black bloc that matter to you.

Trump's attempts to delegitimize media outlets like the NY Times and CNN if they don't present his version of events. His presentation of "alternative facts." his statements that there is "too much protection" in the First Amendment. That all supports free speech.

But people taking to the streets, well, that's chilling of free speech.

And I remind you, the majority of Americans who voted did not vote for Trump. Trump won. No question. But let's not play "what most Americans wanted." Because most Americans did not want Trump.


Trump had a very good point in that if the most votes would have won the contest, he would have campaigned more for those votes. He was smart and put his efforts towards electoral votes. He won because electoral votes are what are counted.

Oh please! Millions of women can take to the street wearing their genitalia on their head, but tens of millions of people can think they are idiots and classless.

The chilling of free speech is what is going on in the universities. Do you support this?

The NY Times delegitamized themself long before Trump won. They lost every pretense of reporting news. Why did they apologize for this then after the election and promise to do better? Why did they rededicate the paper to reporting honestly? Why did Liz Spayd, a Times editor, take the paper to task for its dishonest coverage? You are doing what Mike Goodwin a former communist accused the Times of doing. Why was there letter after letter of complaint from their readers?

Business Insider had an interesting piece about what news sources are trusted. CNN and the Times weren't up there. I think only The Economist and BBC are trusted by all ideological groups. That is sad.
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 14 2017, 4:34 pm
Squishy wrote:
Trump had a very good point in that if the most votes would have won the contest, he would have campaigned more for those votes. He was smart and put his efforts towards electoral votes. He won because electoral votes are what are counted.


Perhaps. But the fact remains that he lost the popular vote. So your claims that the majority of America supported him are patently false.

Squishy wrote:

Oh please! Millions of women can take to the street wearing their genitalia on their head, but tens of millions of people can think they are idiots and classless.


Millions of women thought that Trump was classless and tasteless -- and a molester -- for bragging about grabbing women's pussies. For saying that Megyn Kelly had blood coming out of her "wherever." For saying that no one could vote for Carly Fiorina because of her face. For saying that his own daughter should quit her job if she were z3xually harassed. And countless other things. And those women marched.

If you are OK with all of that, but offended by women wearing knit caps with ears, that's your right. But I don't think that "tens of millions" of people agree with you. Care to cite a poll supporting your claim?

Squishy wrote:

The chilling of free speech is what is going on in the universities. Do you support this?


No, I don't. I'm a free speech advocate.

Squishy wrote:

The NY Times delegitamized themself long before Trump won. They lost every pretense of reporting news. Why did they apologize for this then after the election and promise to do better? Why did they rededicate the paper to reporting honestly? Why did Liz Spayd, a Times editor, take the paper to task for its dishonest coverage? You are doing what Mike Goodwin a former communist accused the Times of doing. Why was there letter after letter of complaint from their readers?


They apologized for their political coverage that underestimated Trump's appeal, and therefore discounted his chances of winning.

Spayd referred to comments made by journalists on Twitter, not in the NY Times. Do you think that journalists have an obligation to be impartial on Twitter? I don't.

Squishy wrote:
Business Insider had an interesting piece about what news sources are trusted. CNN and the Times weren't up there. I think only The Economist and BBC are trusted by all ideological groups. That is sad.


The fact that the right doesn't trust certain media is sad, but its not a commentary on the media so much as it is on the right. There are polls that claim that 51% of Trump voters believe there was a Bowling Green Massacre. (You'll tell me that the polling questions were slanted. Probably true.) They blame the media for not reporting on it. But that doesn't make it so.

But you still haven't supported your proposition about mayhem and arrests after the inauguration, or that it was only a few people who protested against Obama.
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Feb 14 2017, 6:44 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
The fact that the right doesn't trust certain media is sad, but its not a commentary on the media so much as it is on the right. There are polls that claim that 51% of Trump voters believe there was a Bowling Green Massacre. (You'll tell me that the polling questions were slanted. Probably true.) They blame the media for not reporting on it. But that doesn't make it so.

But you still haven't supported your proposition about mayhem and arrests after the inauguration, or that it was only a few people who protested against Obama.


I don't understand your last sentence.

The people who protested against Obama for being black are wrong. I certainly don't support this. I don't like Obama because of his policies.

Are you trying to say that liberals behaved with class and dignity? If they had, they may have picked up a few supporters by juxtaposing against Trump. But the liberals repeating over and over what should never have been said publicly just diminished their position.

Let's start with Hillary behaving like a baby when she lost the election raging and tirading. Let's continue with

https://www.google.com/amp/obs...../amp/

The cry babies on campus
http://m.washingtontimes.com/n.....bies/

Then we can discuss the assault and vandalism that took place for days after election tying up valuable police resources.

http://www.cbsnews.com/amp/new.....tory/

How much more? Is your memory really that short term?


What about the widely reported stories of Muslim women fabricating reports of Trump supporters harassing them?
http://amp.dailycaller.com/201.....tall/


How many more articles?
Do your want the ones with the limousines burning? Small businesses belong looted? Campuses set on fire?

Only a liberal would argue these are not hysterical times.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Feb 15 2017, 12:03 am
Re: Nordstroms

Publicly traded companies are responsible to their shareholders WHO CAN AND DO SUE THEM ALL THE TIME. The CEO can be replaced and the company can owe millions of dollars to its shareholders.

In making its decision, Nordstrom has to keep that in mind. Any political move that ends up backfiring is one from which the company stands to lose much much more. Likewise, if they keep an ailing brand just for the name, they can also end up losing lawsuits by shareholders.

That's why I think this decision was not political. Her items were not selling well so they dropped her. Why were her items selling poorly? That may be related to politics, but it's a different question than why the store dropped her line.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Feb 15 2017, 12:10 am
Re: bakery cakes

First, again- this is not analogous to Ivanka at all. Dr. Mom, you made the comparison first and I'm calling you out on it, as I've done before.

Bakery cakes and similar cases ALL involve protected statuses- race, religion, gender, nationality, family status, etc. That's because as a country, we have decided that bigotry against certain immutable characteristics have resulted in a marginalized class of people and this is an injustice we need to address with federal laws. Whether s-xual orientation should be considered such a protected status on par with race and religion is one of the central issues in the bakery question.

Ivanka does not fall into a protected status because of her father's politics. That is not a type of protected status at all. So it's not similar to the bakery cake situation. And it's just a fine example of the free market economy, nothing more.

In contrast, if Ivanka's line was dropped because she is Jewish, that would have been completely illegal. See the difference?

Second, the actual bakery cake situation is very complicated, because it directly pits conflicting rights against each other. There is no right moral answer that I'm aware of, because you essentially have to choose whose civil rights you value more and that's not a good way of making decisions at all.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Feb 15 2017, 12:20 am
Re: Left and right

Squishy and Fox, what's annoying to me is when you speak in wide-sweeping generalities about the Left and the March participants and the tantruming crying college kids, AND AT THE SAME TIME denounce how the left is painting all Trump supporters as evil bigots... lol, you do the same thing.

To me, it all sounds just like people bitching about the orthodox Jews or the unruly kids of this generation or get off my lawn or whatever. There are literally millions and millions of women who marched, in more than 30 countries. Are you really going to paint them all as vulgar drama queens? There are many people on the left who do not demonize Trump voters, who do not paint them all as racists etc. Also, FYI, there are many people on the right who do not march with the KKK.

And when you do that, when you write sentences full of LIBERALS this and LEFTIES that and COLLEGE CAMPUSES TODAY, it just signals that there's not a lot of nuance going on in your analysis.

And yes, before you respond, I do see the same problems all the time among my non Trump-supporting friends and posters here.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Feb 15 2017, 12:26 am
Fox,

Most people don't care. They live their lives around their kids and families and school and sports games and afterschool activities. They think about Trump or the left or the right maybe once or twice a week tops. That is my impression.

Your impressions are largely skewed by the time you spend on line discussing these issues with people who are, in fact, interested. This is a self-selecting bias because obviously those people will have strong opinions and you then extrapolate to everyone on the planet.

I do this too often and when I step away from FB, I realize that outside the little blue computer screen, most people are talking about vacations and where to go for lunch. Not the Bowling Green Massacre or KellyAnne or even Flynn or Russia. The vast majority of people, I would guess, would struggle to tell you who Betsy Devos is or why she was important.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Feb 15 2017, 12:36 am
Re: College Campuses.

Some college programs are becoming less tolerant of conservative views. I think this phenomenon is much more complex that you've described, particularly because there are so many other factors in play:

* Is this decrease in tolerance related to the type of program/area of study?
* Is this decrease in tolerance related to the gender of the majority of people in that program and whether that gender is expected to conform to authority in the first place?
* Is the type of program/ area of study likely to lead to employment where conformity is valued?
* Does the type of program/ area of study emphasize critical thinking/skeptical analysis? Or does it stress getting along, helping others, etc.?

This is not all about the evil Marxist suppression of speech. There are many interesting aspects to this phenomenon and it's hard to isolate causation.

As an aside, I can't imagine there's a lot of freedom to express liberal views at military academies such as the Citadel and West Point. To what degree does that perceived limit on free speech concern you? Especially in light of the high caliber of graduates from those and similar places?
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Feb 15 2017, 6:10 am
marina wrote:
Re: College Campuses.

Some college programs are becoming less tolerant of conservative views. I think this phenomenon is much more complex that you've described, particularly because there are so many other factors in play:

* Is this decrease in tolerance related to the type of program/area of study?
* Is this decrease in tolerance related to the gender of the majority of people in that program and whether that gender is expected to conform to authority in the first place?
* Is the type of program/ area of study likely to lead to employment where conformity is valued?
* Does the type of program/ area of study emphasize critical thinking/skeptical analysis? Or does it stress getting along, helping others, etc.?

This is not all about the evil Marxist suppression of speech. There are many interesting aspects to this phenomenon and it's hard to isolate causation.

As an aside, I can't imagine there's a lot of freedom to express liberal views at military academies such as the Citadel and West Point. To what degree does that perceived limit on free speech concern you? Especially in light of the high caliber of graduates from those and similar places?


What disciplines are most likely to stifle speech?

I not only have concerns about the lack of free exchange of ideas which makes college students intolerant and out of touch, I have concern with a lack of "grit" and a sense of entitlement. Hillary correctly also thought the basement dwelling children of the Great Recession were out of touch with reality.

Out of touch students with a sense of entitlement are only likely to exacerbate fiscal problems. Differing viewpoints must be heard to temper the tendencies to give away and grab without thought to paying the bill.

West Point is more diverse than you imagine. The military is progressive promoting the rights of minorities and gender equality at least on campus. While there tolerance for seditious statements, there are many progressive concerns for the environment and minority inclusion. Hard work, loyalty, smarts are the types of values that are encouraged and should be encouraged on campuses. I have had many opportunities through the years to speak with cadets and instructors. And I am impressed. I wish they could infuse the rest of society with their values.

What are you thoughts about this?
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Feb 15 2017, 6:34 am
marina wrote:
Re: Left and right

Squishy and Fox, what's annoying to me is when you speak in wide-sweeping generalities about the Left and the March participants and the tantruming crying college kids, AND AT THE SAME TIME denounce how the left is painting all Trump supporters as evil bigots... lol, you do the same thing.

To me, it all sounds just like people bitching about the orthodox Jews or the unruly kids of this generation or get off my lawn or whatever. There are literally millions and millions of women who marched, in more than 30 countries. Are you really going to paint them all as vulgar drama queens? There are many people on the left who do not demonize Trump voters, who do not paint them all as racists etc. Also, FYI, there are many people on the right who do not march with the KKK.

And when you do that, when you write sentences full of LIBERALS this and LEFTIES that and COLLEGE CAMPUSES TODAY, it just signals that there's not a lot of nuance going on in your analysis.

And yes, before you respond, I do see the same problems all the time among my non Trump-supporting friends and posters here.


The sweeping generalities come because the liberal posters, in general, refuse to see any flaws in their position. They dig in deeper instead of saying perhaps they may have gone a little overboard in this area. Perhaps civil unrest and violence is not the best path.

FTR, I support some of their ideas and then some. I believe it is time for universal health insurance paid for at the federal level. Obama care is skewing the economy and costing those vulnerable real opportunities for career advancement. It is causing a surge in Medicaid which is paid for at the county level and causing many families hardships to pay their property taxes in my county. There are other positions I support.

It is the methods I object to. I rather bedroom words stay in the bedroom. I wouldn't paint all of them as vulgar drama queens only the hundreds of thousands of ones who are vugar drama queens. Those are the ones getting in the news.

I also object to hypocrites. If it is wrong for Trump to use the word, it is wrong to wear it on your head. It is blatantly hypocritical to then say it is just a little kitten. It is vulgar, and supposed to be.
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Blue jay




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Feb 15 2017, 8:02 am
SixOfWands wrote:
I don't find anyone who takes "facts, data, statistics''" and toss[es] them out the window" to be a particularly persuasive or educated voter, no matter what degrees she has.

You look at a snapshot in time, and don't seem to care what created that.

You don't attach the economic instability of the Obama years to the near collapse of the economy under Bush, that in turn was created by the type of deregulation that Trump wants.

While anti-Israel animus on campuses surged in the past 2 years, it has been on the rise since the turn of the century.

Under Bush, there were 39 attacks or attempted attacks on U.S. embassies and embassy personnel, 20 of which resulted in at least one fatality. Limiting ourselves to embassies, there were 13 Embassy attacks 66 deaths 3 American diplomats killed 22 Embassy employees killed. Under Obama, there were 2 Embassy attacks 4 American deaths. So blaming the Obama administration for "acceptance of terrorism" is ridiculous.

But you don't care about facts, or statistics. You "toss them out the window." Meaningless to you.

Me, I worry about the morals of a president who sees nothing wrong with using his office to promote private business. Who walks into a ballroom of his privately-owned resort, which the government is paying a lot of money or secret service to stay at on his weekends away, grabs a microphone, and pays homage to a newlywed couple by saying, "They've been members of this club for a long time. They've paid me a fortune." And worry more that he elected to conduct an important strategy session about a Korean missile launch in a public dining hall, with club members watching, reviewing documents by cellphone lights. Who sees nothing wrong with the presentation of "alternative facts." Who seems more concerned with whether news sources report how popular he is that, for example, the flooding risk in Northern California. (And while there are plenty of Jews near the Oroville Dam, most probably aren't Orthodox.)

But I guess you'd tell me those are just facts, and you don't care about facts.



Six of Wands, here is where you and I differ. You share statistics and data and try your best to paint your picture of what this country seems to look like. You also have a vast collection of facts. Please, take your facts and have a walk around lower Manhattan and tell the aggressive pan handler that he simply does not exist because your facts show that crime is down. Then take your spread sheet of FACTS and go to a food pantry out somewhere in the midwest and tell those folks that things are just fine and that they all have jobs and "sorry, your income should cover the cost of groceries too."

Tell the families of the victims of terror attacks, here on US soil, that FACTS show we live in a safe and protected country. Go to Israel, and tell all of our fellow Jews, that Americas got your back when clearly Obama, gave a nice contribution to terrorists and killers (yes killers).

Yes, I do look at snapshots in time because they mean something to me. Maybe, I'm getting old and in this fast age of information events lose their significance. But I remember the terror attacks of Sept 11 and the people who perished. I remember how recently the western civilized liberal world condemned Israel for defending itself and its people. I remember everything and many thinking and feeling American's do as well.

I guess its beyond me and my "education" to understand how people like you can share the same sentiments of a rioting angry crowd that also supports BDS and calls for the destruction of Israel.

According to FACTS Trump should have lost the election. Hillary was supposed to win by a landslide. Maybe its time liberal minded people should stop looking at America and the world like a great big spread sheet and really take a walk through this country from sea to shining sea.

Yours truly, QueenBee3
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Feb 15 2017, 6:53 pm
Squishy wrote:
What disciplines are most likely to stifle speech?

I not only have concerns about the lack of free exchange of ideas which makes college students intolerant and out of touch, I have concern with a lack of "grit" and a sense of entitlement. Hillary correctly also thought the basement dwelling children of the Great Recession were out of touch with reality.

Out of touch students with a sense of entitlement are only likely to exacerbate fiscal problems. Differing viewpoints must be heard to temper the tendencies to give away and grab without thought to paying the bill.

West Point is more diverse than you imagine. The military is progressive promoting the rights of minorities and gender equality at least on campus. While there tolerance for seditious statements, there are many progressive concerns for the environment and minority inclusion. Hard work, loyalty, smarts are the types of values that are encouraged and should be encouraged on campuses. I have had many opportunities through the years to speak with cadets and instructors. And I am impressed. I wish they could infuse the rest of society with their values.

What are you thoughts about this?


In my personal experience, the programs that stifled free speech were the helping professions ones where everyone was expected to get along and these were typically populated by women who were socially conditioned to conform.

For example, in my graduate school psychology program, God help you if you had a different opinion about the value of a particular approach to testing students for disabilities. People would be concerned. Professors may question whether you are cut out for the program. You might have to meet with a committee.

In contrast, in law school, people would spend hours arguing in the hallways, with each other and with professors and it would get heated and no one would blink an eye. Once, my friends and I challenged the speakers at an anti-Israel symposium organized by a professor and then we all demonstrably and rather rudely walked out, with a lot of fanfare. No one cared, not one professor or administrator said anything. It was simply a nonevent. Scalia, nishmaso eden Smile came to speak and students openly challenged him.

It was a totally diffferent atmosphere than school psychology grad school.

I also really see all this griping about college kids as a Get Off My Lawn thing. I have a girl in college and a son in high school and no, they are not entitled brats and neither are their friends. My daughter is doing premed, she has none of the free speech issues mentioned above, and she works harder than anyone I know. When in high school, she literally walked 2 miles in the snow to her job and back 3 times a week. Her friends also have good work ethics and try hard.

So when people talk about teens and young adults in the sort of pejorative way you sometimes do, I just think that maybe they don't actually know any college kids in real life. I dk.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Feb 15 2017, 7:07 pm
Also, I forgot to write this last night. Fox and Squishy, you are both overly concerned about demonstrations and protests.

Demonstrations and protests are one of the most beautiful aspects of our system of government. People protest and show their anger and get things done. And no, it's not always going to be peaceful, because if people care enough to march, they often care enough to be very angry.

And that's okay, as long as it's mostly controlled. Obviously no one wants riots in the streets, but a torched car or two doesn't bother me at all. And I find it actually an incredible double standard when sports games are followed by similar destruction, no one seems to care. But if someone is protesting political events or policies and not the outcome of a football match, WELL THAT'S A PROBLEM.

Also, plse keep in mind that when you are in that moment, everything looks too violent and too destructive and too unacceptable and this changes as you look back on history. So when the civil rights activitists had sit ins and didnt leave restaraunts and had to be arrested and physically carried away by the police, you can be sure that there were many many people who were wringing their hands and saying OH WHAT ARE THOSE LIBERALS DOING WHY CANT THEY PLAY NICE IN THE SANDBOX LIKE EVERYONE ELSE. But many decades later, we look back and see those people as heros.

In some places, citizens are afraid to march and show emotions. In some places they just don't care enough. We have a country where millions of women organized themselves to stand up for their rights and those of their children and friends and neighbors. I think that's beautiful and if some people chose to wear p**** hats- I could not possibly care any less.

Also re: p**** hats. Wearing the hats or using the word is a way of reclaiming the term in a sardonic way. This happens often with pejorative terms including queer and the N word. People of those groups take up the term and use it against their bullies/oppressors.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Feb 15 2017, 7:13 pm
QueenBee3 wrote:
Six of Wands, here is where you and I differ. You share statistics and data and try your best to paint your picture of what this country seems to look like. You also have a vast collection of facts. Please, take your facts and have a walk around lower Manhattan and tell the aggressive pan handler that he simply does not exist because your facts show that crime is down. Then take your spread sheet of FACTS and go to a food pantry out somewhere in the midwest and tell those folks that things are just fine and that they all have jobs and "sorry, your income should cover the cost of groceries too."

Tell the families of the victims of terror attacks, here on US soil, that FACTS show we live in a safe and protected country. Go to Israel, and tell all of our fellow Jews, that Americas got your back when clearly Obama, gave a nice contribution to terrorists and killers (yes killers).

Yes, I do look at snapshots in time because they mean something to me. Maybe, I'm getting old and in this fast age of information events lose their significance. But I remember the terror attacks of Sept 11 and the people who perished. I remember how recently the western civilized liberal world condemned Israel for defending itself and its people. I remember everything and many thinking and feeling American's do as well.

I guess its beyond me and my "education" to understand how people like you can share the same sentiments of a rioting angry crowd that also supports BDS and calls for the destruction of Israel.

According to FACTS Trump should have lost the election. Hillary was supposed to win by a landslide. Maybe its time liberal minded people should stop looking at America and the world like a great big spread sheet and really take a walk through this country from sea to shining sea.

Yours truly, QueenBee3


This is a very emotional post and not data-driven at all. Which is a problem because if you are really disregarding data, you will never be able to assess progress or lack of it. If you're always looking at that one aggressive pan handler or a specific group of poor people in the midwest, you are never going to be able to comment on whether crime and poverty are going down or up. That's unfortunate and also pretty much useless.

Hillary btw won by almost 3 million votes. Our system is such that she wasn't elected, but it's pretty much indisputed that many more voted for her than Trump.
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amother
Pink


 

Post Wed, Feb 15 2017, 8:03 pm
marina wrote:
In my personal experience, the programs that stifled free speech were the helping professions ones where everyone was expected to get along and these were typically populated by women who were socially conditioned to conform.

For example, in my graduate school psychology program, God help you if you had a different opinion about the value of a particular approach to testing students for disabilities. People would be concerned. Professors may question whether you are cut out for the program. You might have to meet with a committee.

In contrast, in law school, people would spend hours arguing in the hallways, with each other and with professors and it would get heated and no one would blink an eye. Once, my friends and I challenged the speakers at an anti-Israel symposium organized by a professor and then we all demonstrably and rather rudely walked out, with a lot of fanfare. No one cared, not one professor or administrator said anything. It was simply a nonevent. Scalia, nishmaso eden Smile came to speak and students openly challenged him.

It was a totally diffferent atmosphere than school psychology grad school.

I also really see all this griping about college kids as a Get Off My Lawn thing. I have a girl in college and a son in high school and no, they are not entitled brats and neither are their friends. My daughter is doing premed, she has none of the free speech issues mentioned above, and she works harder than anyone I know. When in high school, she literally walked 2 miles in the snow to her job and back 3 times a week. Her friends also have good work ethics and try hard.

So when people talk about teens and young adults in the sort of pejorative way you sometimes do, I just think that maybe they don't actually know any college kids in real life. I dk.

Its interesting that you say that psychology programs are the ones that would stifle free speech because how can you help anyone if you cannot discuss problems that communities face? For example, if students wouldnt be allowed to talk about gangs in minority communities bc its "racist" or if they wouldn't be allowed to talk about s-xual abuse in the Jewish communities bc its "anti-semitic" then how would these students be able to know how to identify the problems so they can help people in those communities?

This was covered in the case of Doe v University of Michigan in which a psychology student successfully got rid of the speech codes the school had because psychology students need to have the freedom to discuss problems even if they come across as "racist" or "anti-semitic".

As for your comparision of public universities to the military, the military is free (and I am not sure if they are bound by the first amendment given their sensitive nature of fighting for your life which is not comparable to public university where no ones life should be in danger)and pays for your education. Why would anyone want to pay for public university if they will not be allowed the freedom to express themselves, voice their dissent to mainstream ideas, or otherwise be free to explore different ideologies etc if it is just like the military where everyone has to dress and act the same way? The military sounds harsh and boring, is this what you really want from a college environment?
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amother
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Post Wed, Feb 15 2017, 8:22 pm
marina wrote:
This is a very emotional post and not data-driven at all. Which is a problem because if you are really disregarding data, you will never be able to assess progress or lack of it. If you're always looking at that one aggressive pan handler or a specific group of poor people in the midwest, you are never going to be able to comment on whether crime and poverty are going down or up. That's unfortunate and also pretty much useless.

Hillary btw won by almost 3 million votes. Our system is such that she wasn't elected, but it's pretty much indisputed that many more voted for her than Trump.

Many people didn't vote, either bc they live in a state where the electoral vote automatically goes to the democrat candidate or because they just didn't have anyone to vote for considering the options. So its disingenuous to say that Hillary won the popular vote when she could have easily have lost it were it not for the unusual circumstances involved in this particular election.
I know its speculative but do you think that she would have won the popular vote if every single eligible voter actually voted? Do you think that there should be a law requiring everyone to vote just to see who really wins the popular vote?
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