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flowerpower




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 13 2017, 9:38 am
Here generally we don't support kids in kollel
Our weddings are probably cheaper than yours
Tuition is definitaly less than yours
Many of us do struggle!!!! Trust me

How others do it... They probably work three jobs and very frugal. Everyone has different expenses.
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doctorima




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 13 2017, 9:51 am
I know many people who take out HELOC's or second mortgages to cover wedding and support expenses, especially now that interest rates are low. They figure they'll pay it off slowly over time, or if they ever sell their house later in life, it will just come out of the proceeds. I'm not endorsing this from a financial or moral perspective, just mentioning that this is how some people manage to do it.
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amother
Powderblue


 

Post Mon, Feb 13 2017, 10:14 am
doctorima wrote:
I know many people who take out HELOC's or second mortgages to cover wedding and support expenses, especially now that interest rates are low. They figure they'll pay it off slowly over time, or if they ever sell their house later in life, it will just come out of the proceeds. I'm not endorsing this from a financial or moral perspective, just mentioning that this is how some people manage to do it.


My parents did this. They paid for their half of 10+ weddings by repeatedly tapping into their home equity. We are chassidish, so support is a non-issue. It happens to have worked out well for them. The 500 000$ in mortgage debt that they have accumulated over the past two decades, has been accompanied by a meteoric rise in their home's value and in the income from their rental units. They now carry a 700 000$ mortgage on their 1.5 million dollar home. The tenants pay for most of the mortgage and taxes. They are semi-retired now.
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dina22




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 13 2017, 10:16 am
When you make $250k a year, and live simply, there's no reason you don't have enough to start saving for your children's college and weddings. You definately don't have to, but I don't get why you think it's impossible. Open a mutual fund for each child when they are born and keep adding to it every year. It's not like your making $30k a year and are now trying to marry off children with no planning.
That's why the math works for a lot of people. They put aside from when the child is young, they don't magically come up with money to marry off and support 3 couples at once.
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esther990




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 13 2017, 10:21 am
Dina22 - I am not asking about me. Im asking how others manage, because to me it seems impossible...

I am asking how uneducated people who are working low skilled/low paying jobs who dont have "old money" are able to afford 10K in kallah gifts and 45K weddings for their 10 kids. And support a few kollel kids at the same time.
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amother
Silver


 

Post Mon, Feb 13 2017, 10:26 am
esther990 wrote:
Dina22 - I am not asking about me. Im asking how others manage, because to me it seems impossible...

I am asking how uneducated people who are working low skilled/low paying jobs who dont have "old money" are able to afford 10K in kallah gifts and 45K weddings for their 10 kids. And support a few kollel kids at the same time.


Try reducing those numbers by 60-80%. But still daunting.
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 13 2017, 10:36 am
esther990 wrote:
Dina22 - I am not asking about me. Im asking how others manage, because to me it seems impossible...

I am asking how uneducated people who are working low skilled/low paying jobs who dont have "old money" are able to afford 10K in kallah gifts and 45K weddings for their 10 kids. And support a few kollel kids at the same time.


I think you're mixing up different communities. For example, expensive kallah/chosson gifts are more common in Chassidish/Heimish circles and are a higher priority in the NY area. However, a wedding there can run as little as $15K, and the Chassidish/Heimish parents are less likely to be offering support during kollel.

A Yeshivish family is less likely to spend so much on kallah/chosson gifts, but they may contribute more on kollel support.

A MO family might spend more on a wedding, but without the gifts, kollel, and for fewer kids. However, they might be helping with support or tuition for graduate school.

The other factor is whether the money is required at once or over time. Kallah/chosson gifts and wedding expenses sometimes cause more stress because they require coming up with the money at once. Kollel support is averaged over time, so it might be more doable.

Of course, it goes without saying that everything has spiralled out of control, and many people go dangerously into debt to avoid disappointing anyone.
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esther990




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 13 2017, 12:24 pm
Not trying to stir anything, I am trying to understand this ....

Thanks.


Last edited by esther990 on Fri, Aug 11 2023, 12:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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gold21




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 13 2017, 12:39 pm
There was a fictional story in Mishpacha a couple weeks ago about a kallah who was pressuring her parents to buy her all kinds of things they couldn't afford. She complained, how could she have just two wigs, when all her friends have three? How could she buy the 500 dollar coat when the 1000 coat flatters her so much more, and after all she's a kallah and needs to look good?

After reading the story, I was left totally stumped. Like, for real? Is this supposed to be based on real life? Whatever. So strange to me.

Oh, so in the end she gets tzedaka money allocated towards a bunch of her purchases from a hachnasas kallah organization. Is that where tzedaka money goes? To buy a kallah her third shaitel? I sure hope not..
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amother
Ginger


 

Post Mon, Feb 13 2017, 12:45 pm
amother wrote:
My parents did this. They paid for their half of 10+ weddings by repeatedly tapping into their home equity. We are chassidish, so support is a non-issue. It happens to have worked out well for them. The 500 000$ in mortgage debt that they have accumulated over the past two decades, has been accompanied by a meteoric rise in their home's value and in the income from their rental units. They now carry a 700 000$ mortgage on their 1.5 million dollar home. The tenants pay for most of the mortgage and taxes. They are semi-retired now.


Don't chassidish families support young married couples and buy them extravagant baby presents etc?
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amother
Natural


 

Post Mon, Feb 13 2017, 12:48 pm
I am from the Yeshivish circles and I have never ever ever heard of a single kallah getting a mink coat. I work in a Yeshiva. Rabbeim get 5-10k bonus when they make a wedding. In addition there is a simcha gemach where empolyees can borrow money interest free. Many people do not have retirement accounts. A house in Brooklyn costs at least 750k and many tap into home equity to support and make weddings.
Another thing to consider is that many of these people are not going to college. There is no student debt. If a girl comes out of seminary and goes straight to work at an entry level job making 30k a year, she is living at home and expenses arent too much after taxes and a vacation or two shell have 20 grand in savings. If she works for two years before getting married she easily has 40k in savings and no debt. Thats a very finanically stable way to start a marriage. Horror of Horrors I have heard of people who take thier kids savings and use that as "support."
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gold21




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 13 2017, 12:55 pm
amother wrote:
I am from the Yeshivish circles and I have never ever ever heard of a single kallah getting a mink coat. I work in a Yeshiva. Rabbeim get 5-10k bonus when they make a wedding. In addition there is a simcha gemach where empolyees can borrow money interest free. Many people do not have retirement accounts. A house in Brooklyn costs at least 750k and many tap into home equity to support and make weddings.
Another thing to consider is that many of these people are not going to college. There is no student debt. If a girl comes out of seminary and goes straight to work at an entry level job making 30k a year, she is living at home and expenses arent too much after taxes and a vacation or two shell have 20 grand in savings. If she works for two years before getting married she easily has 40k in savings and no debt. Thats a very finanically stable way to start a marriage. Horror of Horrors I have heard of people who take thier kids savings and use that as "support."


And if she doesn't work for two years before getting married?
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 13 2017, 1:02 pm
esther990 wrote:
Lets rephrase
How does a yeshivish family/heimish/Mo/any other observant family in which the parents are employed in low skill/low paying jobs with no other significant financial reserves, who clearly struggle with basic expenses can come up with extra 10-50K for weddings/kollel support multiply by the number of kids. .

That's not just rephrasing, it's a new question.

Question the first - how can families with lower incomes than yours afford to support kids in kollel? Answer: by living simply, planning ahead of time, possibly having sources of income you aren't aware of (rental properties, inheritance, etc), and probably giving a lot less than you seem to be assuming (like Fox said, in circles where kollel support is standard, weddings tend to be simple. And remember there are usually two pairs of parents paying enough to cover most of a salary for one adult child (the wife works, the husband in kollel gets a stipend), not one set of parents paying all the couple's living expenses).

Question the second - how can families with no money to spare spend lots of money? Answer: by going into debt, or by getting someone else to pay for it.
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esther990




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 13 2017, 1:10 pm
amother wrote:
I am from the Yeshivish circles and I have never ever ever heard of a single kallah getting a mink coat. I work in a Yeshiva. Rabbeim get 5-10k bonus when they make a wedding. In addition there is a simcha gemach where empolyees can borrow money interest free. Many people do not have retirement accounts. A house in Brooklyn costs at least 750k and many tap into home equity to support and make weddings.
Another thing to consider is that many of these people are not going to college. There is no student debt. If a girl comes out of seminary and goes straight to work at an entry level job making 30k a year, she is living at home and expenses arent too much after taxes and a vacation or two shell have 20 grand in savings. If she works for two years before getting married she easily has 40k in savings and no debt. Thats a very finanically stable way to start a marriage. Horror of Horrors I have heard of people who take thier kids savings and use that as "support."



What happens to her after the marriage, when she has a number of kids and has reached her the max of her earning potential? Can she afford a 750K house?
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amother
Mustard


 

Post Mon, Feb 13 2017, 1:19 pm
what happens when people retire do their kids then support them and their own families including their children who are going to be learning in kollel? Especially if they refinance their mortgages social security isn't going to be able to support them after retirement?
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esther990




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 13 2017, 1:24 pm
I feel that we encourage people to take on more then they can...
...


Last edited by esther990 on Fri, Aug 11 2023, 12:35 pm; edited 2 times in total
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amother
Puce


 

Post Mon, Feb 13 2017, 1:27 pm
amother wrote:
Don't chassidish families support young married couples and buy them extravagant baby presents etc?

NO!
Our parents split the very simple takana wedding costs. My husband's great aunt who never had children helped w wedding gifts. I worked for a couple of years b4 married and used some of the $ towards furniture.
Was never supported as in a monthly check or whatever but my mother invited us often to eat or pick up dinner or shabos food So we didn't have much food expenses the first yr.
1st baby- my mom bought babys layette. Mil gave me $200 towards a stroller. And this is the typical. Those that do otherwise either have a much higher income, inheritance etc.
PS those always krimming when u see "all these people with bugaboos" just know that very many buy second hand or combine gift $. (Like we did though I did not get a bugaboo) and they use it for many kids so regardless they get their money's worth. Plus, most of them don't have cars and this is their only stroller. Wasn't necessarily discussed on this thread but sick and tired of hearing it being take apart here...
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ange




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Feb 13 2017, 1:35 pm
This doesn't really answer your question, but...

I think that many people have gotten confused about the difference between needs and wants.

About wanting our cake and eating it too.

We are not doing our children any favor by giving them a lifestyle that is beyond our means. Better let them learn the lessons young that we live within our means and that means not getting everything we want.

When we go along with a culture that does things because that's what everyone else has set the standard to, we become like sheep.

Personally, we make simple simchos (not up to weddings yet) davka because we want to show our friends that the beauty is the occasion, not the decor. Will I change the world this way? No. But I can feel proud that I stand for something. And my kids learn my values.

We are planning for the future, a little bit at a time. We make decisions now and say no to certain things like vacations, not replacing old ugly cars that still work, I buy $20 weekday and Shabbos shoes from payless when my old ones have holes, etc. so we can stay on track of our goals.
Weddings should not be a surprise. You know they are coming, so plan as best as you can. And all you NEED is a chuppah and a rabbi. So maybe you don't get the five course meal for 500 guests. Make a statement and go buffet for relatives, and friends for dessert. Whatever.

The point is let's stop looking at the standards everyone else is setting for us and live our life in a way that makes sense for us as individuals.

Maybe together we can change things Smile
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amother
Ginger


 

Post Mon, Feb 13 2017, 1:54 pm
amother wrote:
NO!
Our parents split the very simple takana wedding costs. My husband's great aunt who never had children helped w wedding gifts. I worked for a couple of years b4 married and used some of the $ towards furniture.
Was never supported as in a monthly check or whatever but my mother invited us often to eat or pick up dinner or shabos food So we didn't have much food expenses the first yr.
1st baby- my mom bought babys layette. Mil gave me $200 towards a stroller. And this is the typical. Those that do otherwise either have a much higher income, inheritance etc.
PS those always krimming when u see "all these people with bugaboos" just know that very many buy second hand or combine gift $. (Like we did though I did not get a bugaboo) and they use it for many kids so regardless they get their money's worth. Plus, most of them don't have cars and this is their only stroller. Wasn't necessarily discussed on this thread but sick and tired of hearing it being take apart here...


That adds up to not insignificant support. But just practically don't most chassidish girls get married before 20? That's not a lot of time to work. And the men don't have work experience either. So who pays the Brooklyn rent in those early years?
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amother
Wheat


 

Post Mon, Feb 13 2017, 1:57 pm
amother wrote:
I am from the Yeshivish circles and I have never ever ever heard of a single kallah getting a mink coat. I work in a Yeshiva. Rabbeim get 5-10k bonus when they make a wedding. In addition there is a simcha gemach where empolyees can borrow money interest free. Many people do not have retirement accounts. A house in Brooklyn costs at least 750k and many tap into home equity to support and make weddings.
Another thing to consider is that many of these people are not going to college. There is no student debt. If a girl comes out of seminary and goes straight to work at an entry level job making 30k a year, she is living at home and expenses arent too much after taxes and a vacation or two shell have 20 grand in savings. If she works for two years before getting married she easily has 40k in savings and no debt. Thats a very finanically stable way to start a marriage. Horror of Horrors I have heard of people who take thier kids savings and use that as "support."


I don't see how anyone can save $40,000 over two years, making only $30,000 a year. After taxes, that's about $23,000 per year. You assume that someone will spend only $3000 a year on transportation (if in NY, a monthly metrocard will run half of that), entertainment and clothing. Are mom and dad paying for her health insurance, phone, toiletries, hair cuts, etc? (A worker employed full time at the current federal minimum wage earns $15,080 per year. Earning $30,000 a year straight out of high school, with no technical diploma is pretty impressive as well.)

But let's say she has $40,000 in the bank, because she's an amazing saver. If she adds nothing to it, in 20 years, she'll have $100,000. Not enough to put down on that $750,000 house in Brooklyn, much less all of those rental properties that are spinning off income according to another poster.
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