Modern family--goodness!!

flowerpower

Wed, Feb 15 2017, 12:26 pm

gp2.0 wrote:

Great posts here. I agree that it's ludicrous to make a child choose a gender, or dress in gender specific ways based on behavior. A preschooler can and should be interested in pursuing both male and female activities without being pushed to decide how they want to present their gender. Boys who play with makeup and jewelry can still be boys. Girls who play with cars and tools can still be girls. I can't imagine what kind of behavior a child would exhibit that would force the parents to conclude that the child MUST be a different gender.

I also have a bigger issue with the idea of being transgender altogether. I know it's not a PC opinion, but I believe wanting to be transgender is a mental illness in the way that wanting to amputate limbs is a mental illness. If you have trouble accepting the body you're in, then you have trouble accepting reality. And trouble accepting/dealing with reality to the extent that it affects your life is the definition of mental illness.

Very well said!!!!!!! I agree with you completely. My son only played with dolls and doll house furniture as a little kid. Nothing changed because of that. He still grew up a nice and gentle boy.

mommyla

Wed, Feb 15 2017, 12:56 pm

flowerpower wrote:

Very well said!!!!!!! I agree with you completely. My son only played with dolls and doll house furniture as a little kid. Nothing changed because of that. He still grew up a nice and gentle boy.

Yes. These people take very normal childhood experiences and run with them. My daughter has a preschool classmate, a little boy, who regularly wears necklaces and likes to play with girls. Should he be allowed to make life-altering decisions at age 3? Same daughter used to talk about how she'd have a yarmulka and tzitzis when she's a big boy and a Daddy. Should I have changed her name to Moshe and encouraged her to be a boy? (She is currently a lion. Maybe I should style her hair into a mane.) My niece was very insistent for a very long time that she'd be a boy when she grew up. Now she's a very happily female teenager.

Seriously, it's out of hand. If you have a grown adult who decides they are supposed to be the opposite gender, that's one thing (which I am not in any way supporting!), but for a child to have to go through life with additional confusion (what happens when she realizes that she's really not supposed to be a boy, but she's in middle school and it would be too horrible to "change back" at that point?) and hardship is just unspeakably awful.

pause

Wed, Feb 15 2017, 1:37 pm

SacN wrote:

I think it's insanity. My daughter is encouraged to dress and behave like a girl and know that iyH she will be a wife and mother one day, and my son is encouraged to dress and behave like a boy and know that he will be an abba too, iyH. Point of reference, I'm charedi, in Israel.

I don't encourage anything. I let them do what they want (as long as it's safe!) and behave how they want. My daughter will not turn into a boy because she likes to play with cars and hates wearing a bracelet! My son will not turn into a girl because he likes to dress up like Mommy or play with dolls! It's so not a big deal around here...

Aylat

Wed, Feb 15 2017, 1:52 pm

gp2.0 wrote:

The trouble is, this takes you down the rabbit hole of what is considered "socially acceptable mental illness."

For example, a woman deciding to amputate her perfectly healthy leg is considered mentally ill, because amputating legs isn't socially acceptable. This same woman can decide to have a surgeon rearrange her perfectly healthy nose, face, breasts and stomach and she won't be considered mentally ill, because those surgeries ARE socially acceptable.

How do we decide which body mutilation is socially acceptable and which isn't? It's completely arbitrary. There's no rhyme or reason to it at all. By that logic, as long as being transgender is socially acceptable (which it currently is) then being transgender can't qualify as a mental illness.

By that logic we can also extrapolate that mental illness doesn't exist. Every mental illness is simply a set of behaviors and thoughts that are not currently accepted by society as being valid. If society did accept them as simply another way to choose to live life, the majority of mental illnesses would disappear.

This is a very interesting post. Other psychiatric diagnoses have changed as social mores have changed - homosexuality used to be in the DSM.

The concept of normative plays a big part in diagnosing mental illness. Pesach cleaning is not OCD behaviour because it is a normative part of Orthodox culture. When OCD manifests in halachic areas (eg davening, Pesach cleaning), then the person's behaviour deviates from the norm of their society.

But is that all mental illness is - deviation from the norm? What about psychosis? Depression? PTSD?

dimyona

Wed, Feb 15 2017, 2:19 pm

Aylat wrote:

This is a valid observation. In some cultures, people with schizophrenia are revered as gifted prophets or healers with visions, and live very happy lives, while in western culture this would be pathologized and medicated.

IMHO, if "abnormal" thoughts or behavior do not impact daily functioning and self sufficiency of a person, then it does not need to be treated as a disease. The horrific suicide rate in the transgender community indicates that gender dysphoria is indeed a dangerous mental health issue that must be treated. The question is about the best way to do so.

amother

Ivory

Wed, Feb 15 2017, 2:41 pm

dimyona wrote:

Women who lose breasts after cancer treatment are not any less of a woman for it, and same with male reproductive organs. Any individual can be as feminine or as masculine alike, with whatever body parts they have. Much of the progressive discourse is eager to put gender into these boxes, when it goes against everything liberalism has been fighting for for so long.

Bottom line, it's complicated, and what we can all agree on is that this is a painful and difficult issue, and hope that each individual can find happiness with whatever route they pursue.

Thank you for saying this. My son has no testicles and hurts me so much to think that people will think he is any less of a "man." He happens to behave exactly the same way as any typical little boy his age.

amother

Seagreen

Wed, Feb 15 2017, 4:01 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

There are 6 genders identified in Talmud, not 2:

Zachar/זָכָר: This term is derived from the word for a pointy sword and refers to a phallus. It is usually translated as “male” in English.

Nekeivah/נְקֵבָה: This term is derived from the word for a crevice and probably refers to a vaginal opening. It is usually translated as “female” in English.

Androgynos/אַנְדְּרוֹגִינוֹס: A person who has both “male” and “female” s-xual characteristics. 149 references in Mishna and Talmud (1st-8th Centuries CE); 350 in classical midrash and Jewish law codes (2nd -16th Centuries CE).

Tumtum/ טֻומְטוּם A person whose s-xual characteristics are indeterminate or obscured. 181 references in Mishna and Talmud; 335 in classical midrash and Jewish law codes.

Ay’lonit/איילונית: A person who is identified as “female” at birth but develops “male” characteristics at puberty and is infertile. 80 references in Mishna and Talmud; 40 in classical midrash and Jewish law codes.

Saris/סריס: A person who is identified as “male” at birth but develops “female” characteristics as puberty and/or is lacking a aiver. A saris can be “naturally” a saris (saris hamah), or become one through human intervention (saris adam). 156 references in mishna and Talmud; 379 in classical midrash and Jewish law codes.

[Stolen from online]

Are we so sure that modern transsexuals aren't what was described at Ay'lonit or Saris? (In addition, obviously, to interz3xed people.)

Ive heard about this before but
Does any one actualy know ppl like this...
Androgynos - someone whith both gender charicteristics?
Tumtum - obscured male/femail charicteristics
Aylonit/saris a femail that developed into a mail and vice versa

MagentaYenta

Wed, Feb 15 2017, 4:14 pm

amother wrote:

Today you may not personally know individuals with these characteristics, but they are real. Trans people were known in many cultures including those of our First Nations here in the US. Today they are called Two Spirit, back in the days of the French Trappers they were known as berdaches. And their cultures honored them. In India they were called Hijra, in China shih-niang.

MagentaYenta

Wed, Feb 15 2017, 4:38 pm

amother wrote:

Meanig does anyone know of a child being born with both gender charicterisics
of a child being born and not being able to distinguish its gender
Or a child born as a femail and turned into a male naturally or vice versa

"An inter$ex human or other animal is one possessing any of several variations in $ex characteristics including chromosomes, gonads, $ex hormones, or genitals...Such variations may involve genital ambiguity, and combinations of chromosomal genotype and $exual phenotype other than XY-male and XX-female."

For the whole article which is quite comprehensive use this link.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inter$ex

When cutting and pasting the link change the $ sign to the letter s.

Fox

Wed, Feb 15 2017, 5:14 pm

dimyona wrote:

IMHO, if "abnormal" thoughts or behavior do not impact daily functioning and self sufficiency of a person, then it does not need to be treated as a disease. The horrific suicide rate in the transgender community indicates that gender dysphoria is indeed a dangerous mental health issue that must be treated. The question is about the best way to do so.

Of course, it's also a matter of degrees. There are many people with depression or anxiety who are functional and self-sufficient, but they rightfully believe they would be happier if they could reduce their symptoms. Fortunately, SSRI drugs and their cousins were developed before depression and anxiety became politicized identities.

When someone with gender dysphoria transitions, it is the equivalent of drilling holes in the skull to treat depression. Everyone means well, but . . . it remains a crude, violent solution to a problem we don't understand.

When someone is "born that way" (whatever "that way" is), the obvious question is, "Why?" It is an unfortunate commentary on our society that we worry a great deal about civil rights for people experiencing gender dysphoria, SSA, and other gender/s-x issues, but we don't care much about what would make the people themselves happier.

While some people are happy transitioning, others might prefer to take medication to resolve their gender dysphoria. Or perhaps pregnant women could take a supplement during pregnancy to reduce the chances of a child with gender dysphoria. Some people with SSA don't find it a burden, but others would prefer to take a monthly injection. Not to mention people with various gender or s-x issues that don't fall into common categories.

Alas, good luck getting funding to research the "why" beneath any of these characteristics. As for the character in Modern Family, it would be nice for the producers to follow actual medical research and show the child growing out of the dysphoria, which a majority of children do. I have my doubts about whether that will happen.

FranticFrummie

Wed, Feb 15 2017, 6:35 pm

amother wrote:

I personally know someone. Her parents tried to raise her as a boy, but when she hit puberty, her private parts never developed in a masculine way.

She was born with ambiguous genitalia, and indeterminate chromosomes. She was the first woman in NY to get Medicare to pay for her surgery, because it was determined to be medically necessary.

The last I heard from her, she was a very happy, non-suicidal person with a great job and a lovely partner. You would never in a million years guess that she wasn't born 100% female, unless she told you.