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To Hijab or Not to Hijab?
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Feb 22 2017, 3:32 pm
Marine Le Pen was in the news this week for refusing to cover her hair while meeting in Lebanon with Sheikh Abdellatif Deryan, the country's top Sunni cleric.
Marine Le Pen Stirs Headscarf Controversy

Le Pen is nothing if not a controversial figure, and this was obviously a headline-grab to some degree.

However, it's not the first time in recent months that women refusing to cover their hair in Muslim countries has made the news.

Women Chess Players Object to Wearing Hijab

So what do you think, ladies?

Personally, I'm kind of conflicted. Part of me cheers on women who refuse to bow to the demands a religion that clearly uses religious law to subjugate women. However, another part of me questions whether this should be treated as a women's rights issue or a religious respect issue or even a cultural issue.

And how do we separate what constitutes a religious requirement, the respect of religion, or just a cultural practice. Sometimes it's obvious, but not always.

Would I wear a mini-skirt to BP or WB? No. I'd consider it disrespectful and a flagrant attempt provoke people who don't want to be provoked. Of course, my wearing a mini-skirt would be an affront to anyone's aesthetics, but this is just an example.

On the other hand, I wouldn't go out and buy a new wardrobe just to make sure no one could possibly be offended by my flagrant Litvishness.

I do know women who cover their hair in some situations but not in others, though I'm not entirely sure I understand their reasoning.

So what do you think? Are Le Pen and the chess players making a bold, necessary statement? Or are they just refusing to take off their shoes in a Japanese household because that's not what they do at home?
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ariellabella




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Feb 22 2017, 3:39 pm
If I'm not mistaken, Le Pen said not too long ago that she would ban all hijabs in France, and also all kippot. So no, I am not surprised that she won't wear one in Lebanon, but I am surprised that they invited her.
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flowerpower




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Feb 22 2017, 3:46 pm
When in Rome..... If the custom in the muslim countries is for the women to cover their hair then show some respect and do the same.
The same way a president or political person would wear a kippah at the kosel.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Feb 22 2017, 3:46 pm
Le Pen is clearly making a political statement, because she is quite vocal about supporting the hijab ban in France. They want a kippah ban, as well, and I'll bet they're not fans of the tichel, either.

I think that good manners suggest that you adopt the mode of the place your are visiting, as you say, taking off your shoes in Japan. If I were to travel in France, given the current political climate, I would probably wear a sheitel.

Slightly off topic:

In my neighborhood, the hijabis are more fashionable, well put together, and stylish than even the fanciest frum woman. They are very modern, and come from very wealthy old families. I envy their ability to rock a leopard print scarf and bright red lipstick. I also want to go up to them and say "Girl, who does your eyebrows? I need her number!"

What disturbed me in America, was the Somali girls. They start wearing a full hijab that goes all the way to the floor, at age three! They can't run and play, they can barely walk without tripping over their scarves, while they watch their brothers zoom around the playground.

If a woman who is at the age of consent CHOOSES to wear a hijab, then that's great. Reading the fashion blogs of women who are hijabis by choice is really fascinating.

It becomes oppression, when she doesn't have that choice. If I decide not to cover my hair, I don't have to worry about sharia modesty police flogging me in the street.
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Feb 22 2017, 3:57 pm
flowerpower wrote:
When in Rome..... If the custom in the muslim countries is for the women to cover their hair then show some respect and do the same.
The same way a president or political person would wear a kippah at the kosel.


But the kotel is a religious site.

I don't think that its appropriate for anyone, including any government, to demand that the leader, or potential leader, of another country dress in a particular manner.

But I also think that its incumbent upon world leaders to dress in a manner that will not be offensive to those with whom they are meeting, or where they are going.

I mean, I don't think that Israel would be correct to demand that Melania wear long sleeves and thick hose were she to visit the kotel, but I also think she would be wrong to show up in Daisy Dukes and a tank top. (Not that I think she would.)

So they shouldn't have demanded that LePen wear a hijab, but she should have done so without demand.

Does anyone know if a Muslim is allowed to look at a non-Muslim woman without a hijab? If so, then forget the latter; there was no reason for her to wear it.

IOW, I don't know. I have to think about it.
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sequoia




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Feb 22 2017, 4:10 pm
Of course he is Smile Otherwise Muslim men wouldn't live anywhere except Saudi Arabia.
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Feb 22 2017, 4:15 pm
sequoia wrote:
Of course he is Smile Otherwise Muslim men wouldn't live anywhere except Saudi Arabia.


That was my thought, but then I googled and found a dense, talmudic analysis of family vs non-family vs doesn't have to wear, and can you look at their face, or their hands if they're wearing a ring, and ...

Then I figured that if I have to read a dense, talmudic text, I want it to be one of our own. So I gave up.
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youngishbear




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Feb 22 2017, 4:21 pm
I don't think refusing to wear a hijab as a visitor should be the choice method to protest against female subjugation. I can't think of an alternative right now, but because the hijab is both religious and cultural, her statement runs the risk of being misinterpreted as disrespect. More importantly, because of that it will do nothing to empower women in Islamic countries who want to keep Islamic law, while simultaneously increasing their liberties, and making it all work in the modern world.

As a chassidish woman in the 21st century I have a lot of sympathy for that process. I think le Pen was wrong, especially because of who she is and what she represents.
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Feb 22 2017, 5:02 pm
youngishbear wrote:
More importantly, because of that it will do nothing to empower women in Islamic countries who want to keep Islamic law, while simultaneously increasing their liberties, and making it all work in the modern world.


ITA. This is where I've ended up in my thinking so far.

I think most people who concern themselves with religious values realize that the hijab or even the burka/niqab doesn't equal subjugation in and of itself. Of course, it is often imposed in a way that subjugates women and/or deprives them of various freedoms. That's obviously the case in Iran, where covering the hair is a legal requirement.

But refusing to wear a hijab when visiting a place where that is the custom seems a little too close to denying Muslim women their agency, like saying, "Oh, you poor dears! Let me tell you what I think should bother you most about your society." It's one thing to join Iranian women in whatever type of protest they initiate; it's another to impose it from outside.
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chavi100




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Feb 22 2017, 5:20 pm
FranticFrummie wrote:

If a woman who is at the age of consent CHOOSES to wear a hijab, then that's great. Reading the fashion blogs of women who are hijabis by choice is really fascinating.


FranticFrummie, you can't see any irony in that statement? Do you ask your three year old if she wants to dress tzniusdik?


Last edited by chavi100 on Wed, Feb 22 2017, 5:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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youngishbear




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Feb 22 2017, 5:22 pm
Fox wrote:
ITA. This is where I've ended up in my thinking so far.

I think most people who concern themselves with religious values realize that the hijab or even the burka/niqab doesn't equal subjugation in and of itself. Of course, it is often imposed in a way that subjugates women and/or deprives them of various freedoms. That's obviously the case in Iran, where covering the hair is a legal requirement.

But refusing to wear a hijab when visiting a place where that is the custom seems a little too close to denying Muslim women their agency, like saying, "Oh, you poor dears! Let me tell you what I think should bother you most about your society." It's one thing to join Iranian women in whatever type of protest they initiate; it's another to impose it from outside.


Exactly. It's why I oppose Yaffed's methods even if I agree that our boys' education is in dire need of improvement.

To go off topic in another direction, I think now is as good time as any to point out that liberals have a nuanced view on religion, especially religious liberals. You once mentioned that "the left" doesn't "get" religion. It's not as simple as that.
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pond user




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Feb 22 2017, 5:25 pm
Just to add to what's been said: I disagree that someone visiting the kotel should wear a kippa or even cover their hair if they aren't Jewish. Why should they? The rule is for Jewish people! and in the same regard that a non Jew shouldn't keep shabbat, I feel they shouldn't put on our garb even when visiting our holy places.

Now, why on earth should she dress like a Muslim when visiting a Muslim country? It bothers me no end when people put their modesty rules onto others. I used to work at a kindergarten where all the therapist's and visitors were required to dress modestly (and I mean all of the halachot were given to these women before visiting and they were very strict in enforcing it's rule). It bothered me no end that non Jewish professional women were forced into long skirts, tights and high necked shirts for their brief visit. That's not to say I don't feel they should be modest at all, but saying we are a religious setting please respect that and wear modest clothing is enough. If the person chooses to wear loose pants and covers her breasts is it not sufficient?

Can't we teach our children and communities that not everyone is just like us? That we are all different? And to respect that other people are not frum Jews/Muslims etc? I mean if she were going into a mosque is one thing but otherwise there's no place for ones religion to be pushed onto others.
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MagentaYenta




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Feb 22 2017, 5:32 pm
pond user wrote:
Just to add to what's been said: I disagree that someone visiting the kotel should wear a kippa or even cover their hair if they aren't Jewish. Why should they? The rule is for Jewish people! and in the same regard that a non Jew shouldn't keep shabbat, I feel they shouldn't put on our garb even when visiting our holy places.

Now, why on earth should she dress like a Muslim when visiting a Muslim country? It bothers me no end when people put their modesty rules onto others. I used to work at a kindergarten where all the therapist's and visitors were required to dress modestly (and I mean all of the halachot were given to these women before visiting and they were very strict in enforcing it's rule). It bothered me no end that non Jewish professional women were forced into long skirts, tights and high necked shirts for their brief visit. That's not to say I don't feel they should be modest at all, but saying we are a religious setting please respect that and wear modest clothing is enough. If the person chooses to wear loose pants and covers her breasts is it not sufficient?

Can't we teach our children and communities that not everyone is just like us? That we are all different? And to respect that other people are not frum Jews/Muslims etc? I mean if she were going into a mosque is one thing but otherwise there's no place for ones religion to be pushed onto others.


And that nonJewish woman driving through Monsey wearing bermuda shorts who stops somewhere to grab a cold drink, would there be such an understanding of her garb?

Not directly pointed at you but merely playing devils advocate. And to make it more confusing I'm MO and I don't cover. I will cover if going to a simcha and it is the hostesses tradition to cover, or the communities. For me it's a matter of respect. I do wear a hijab when I cover.


Last edited by MagentaYenta on Wed, Feb 22 2017, 5:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Iymnok




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Feb 22 2017, 5:33 pm
Why couldn't she just wear a ski mask? Or a pompom hat with a scarf?
You can't successfully protest something you don't really understand. Methinks she missed the boat.
Maybe Jewish women just dress better.
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youngishbear




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Feb 22 2017, 5:38 pm
pond user wrote:
Just to add to what's been said: I disagree that someone visiting the kotel should wear a kippa or even cover their hair if they aren't Jewish. Why should they? The rule is for Jewish people! and in the same regard that a non Jew shouldn't keep shabbat, I feel they shouldn't put on our garb even when visiting our holy places.

Now, why on earth should she dress like a Muslim when visiting a Muslim country? It bothers me no end when people put their modesty rules onto others. I used to work at a kindergarten where all the therapist's and visitors were required to dress modestly (and I mean all of the halachot were given to these women before visiting and they were very strict in enforcing it's rule). It bothered me no end that non Jewish professional women were forced into long skirts, tights and high necked shirts for their brief visit. That's not to say I don't feel they should be modest at all, but saying we are a religious setting please respect that and wear modest clothing is enough. If the person chooses to wear loose pants and covers her breasts is it not sufficient?

Can't we teach our children and communities that not everyone is just like us? That we are all different? And to respect that other people .are not frum Jews/Muslims etc? I mean if she were going into a mosque is one thing but otherwise there's no place for ones religion to be pushed onto others.


Exactly. This reminds me of the child-who-left-their-parents'-derech threads.

The parents would be wise to refrain from demanding dress codes. The child would be wise to show respect by conforming to reasonable basic standards. Reasonable is a subjective term, obviously, which is what makes those situations so fraught.
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Iymnok




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Feb 22 2017, 5:42 pm
Right, it always seemed funny to me when politicians Spokane our Shul wearing a kippa. At least the women didn't don doilies.
Those shawls and scarves for women to cover up at the kotel is respectful. In the summer tourists are often not decently covered.
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wondergirl




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Feb 22 2017, 5:48 pm
Fox wrote:
ITA. This is where I've ended up in my thinking so far.

I think most people who concern themselves with religious values realize that the hijab or even the burka/niqab doesn't equal subjugation in and of itself. Of course, it is often imposed in a way that subjugates women and/or deprives them of various freedoms. That's obviously the case in Iran, where covering the hair is a legal requirement.

But refusing to wear a hijab when visiting a place where that is the custom seems a little too close to denying Muslim women their agency, like saying, "Oh, you poor dears! Let me tell you what I think should bother you most about your society." It's one thing to join Iranian women in whatever type of protest they initiate; it's another to impose it from outside.

But that is exactly how Americans (or the French) feel towards people who wear head coverings. They don't want to see a hijab, shpitzel, shtreimel, or kippah in their country because they don't wear these things. It used to be a sign of respect to remove your hat indoors in America, now they have to make exceptions for the kippah and the headgear the Muslim men wear, etc. So if we should cover our head appropriately in countries that have that custom, then we should also respect the customs of this country and not cover our heads accordingly otherwise its a double standard. Why are religious customs/values more important than secular customs/values?
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youngishbear




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Feb 22 2017, 5:53 pm
wondergirl wrote:
But that is exactly how Americans feel towards people who wear head coverings. They don't want to see a hijab, shpitzel, shtreimel, or kippah in their country because they don't wear these things. It used to be a sign of respect to remove your hat indoors in America, now they have to make exceptions for the kippah and the headgear the Muslim men wear, etc. So if we should cover our head appropriately in countries that have that custom, then we should also respect the customs of this country and not cover our heads. Otherwise its a double standard. Why are religious customs/values more important than secular customs/values?


When religious needs conflict, we need to look at which side has a stronger case.

If I were told to remove my headcovering to enter a government building (which happened to a friend many years ago), I would choose not to enter. That results in discrimination against me because of my religious beliefs.
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Feb 22 2017, 6:01 pm
youngishbear wrote:
I don't think refusing to wear a hijab as a visitor should be the choice method to protest against female subjugation. I can't think of an alternative right now, but because the hijab is both religious and cultural, her statement runs the risk of being misinterpreted as disrespect. More importantly, because of that it will do nothing to empower women in Islamic countries who want to keep Islamic law, while simultaneously increasing their liberties, and making it all work in the modern world.

As a chassidish woman in the 21st century I have a lot of sympathy for that process. I think le Pen was wrong, especially because of who she is and what she represents.


Was her refusal actually to protest female subjugation? If so, that wouldn't work.

I view it more as a commentary on religious freedom, which includes freedom from religion, and freedom to dress in accordance with the dictates of your own beliefs. Which, I guess, LePen actually opposes.
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ectomorph




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Feb 22 2017, 6:05 pm
The French are feeling that Islamic culture is being forced on them. Her act of defiance is being interpreted as a refusal to participate in the Islamization of France. Hence her rise in the polls - she is now the front runner.

I personally take no position. I believe in modesty and would rather Westerners dressed better but wouldn't want it forced on anyone.
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