To Hijab or Not to Hijab?

Laiya

Thu, Feb 23 2017, 9:28 am

As other posters have said regarding La Penn, context matters.

There is a difference between meeting with the (Shia) heads of state in Iran, and meeting with a religious (Sunni) leader in Lebanon.

In Iran, women are executed for failing to wear it in public.

In Lebanon, 49% of the population thinks it’s ok for a woman to decide on her own whether or not to wear it in public.

La Penn was free to refuse to wear the headcovering, and the Shiekh was free to refuse to meet with her.

But given the context, if her intended message was one of solidarity with oppressed women….that message may not have been heard. (Of course her real message was to her constituents back home, and that message was heard.)

Fox

Thu, Feb 23 2017, 11:04 am

Le Pen seems a little different from the chess players because there's so much more going on there. As Ectomorph wrote, she was making more of a statement against Islam than in favor of women's choices.

This is one of those cases where find myself agreeing with every single post -- even when they reach diametrically opposite conclusions.

I think Treestump is correct that it's inappropriate for government officials to demand that women dress in a particular way. At the same time, it's appropriate for women officials to be sensitive to the mores of their hosts. And in Le Pen's case, this wasn't an official government meeting; it was closer to a campaign visit.

I still can't decide how I feel about the chess players, though.

PinkFridge

Thu, Feb 23 2017, 3:21 pm

Wondergirl, don't think I'm ignoring you. I replied off the cuff before reading the rest of the thread and am going to sit back for a bit till I have a chance to think this through.

There is profound meaning behind our covering our hair, granted, but isn't the goal to make sure that people don't see the hair? Is that the same with the hijab? Because if so then I don't get the hijab-yarmulke dichotomy.

Last edited by PinkFridge on Sun, Feb 26 2017, 10:49 am; edited 2 times in total

dancingqueen

Thu, Feb 23 2017, 4:21 pm

saw50st8 wrote:

I'm not a fan of forcing people to conform to your culture, whatever it is.

So in the same way that I accept people will come into my house with varying degrees of covering (no covering, tichels, sheitels, black hats, streimels etc), I expect that likewise, I can show up in the manner of dress and covering that I choose.

I think she was right to refuse the hijab.

This. Which is why I would dress as I always do even in a chareidi neighborhood.

I'm not an expert in international diplomacy but I support what she did.

wondergirl

Sun, Feb 26 2017, 7:38 am

PinkFridge wrote:

There is profound meaning behind our covering our hair, granted, but isn't the goal to make sure that people don't see the hair? Is that the same with the hijab? Because if so then I don't get the hijab-yarmulke dichotomy.

It is your personal religious belief to cover the hair, the reasoning behind it is irrelevant. But you do go through rituals to get to the point of covering the hair. First you go through the process of dating to find your bashert, then you have a tenoim, sign a ketubah, have a chuppah, have a week of sheva bruchos, etc. You sacrifice greatly for it and wear it even if it is 100 degrees outside because of your connection and relationship with God.

Why would you want to diminish its value by forcing strangers to cover their hair if they come visit you? If God would have wanted them to cover their hair then he would have said that but that is not what God wants, so why are you forcing your religious beliefs onto people who do not share your belief system? That is especially since we are obligated to follow the laws of our land so we should be grateful that our government allows us to practice our religion and even accommodate us and makes exceptions to their rules that everyone else has to follow. You now want to return this favor by forcing your religious dress code onto them? Is this how you show Hakaros Hatov to a govt that has been tolerant and accepting of you even if they don't follow, understand, or care about your religion?

And if you are forcing them to wear your religious dress code then why would they not think that you are also forcing your kids to wear the religious dress code against their will? Or that you are not being forced to dress this way against your will? And if that is the case, then why would they not want to ban all religious garb to ensure that no one is being forced to do anything religious related against their will?

wondergirl

Sun, Feb 26 2017, 8:00 am

ora_43 wrote:

Wondergirl, the reasons that Muslim clerics think women should cover their hair are not the same reasons Jewish women have for covering their hair.

Also, the arguments re: democracy, tolerance, etc, that might sway religious leaders in America may be less of a factor in Lebanon.

Lebanon is not a Muslim country where women are obligated to wear hijabs so there was no reason to force a non-Muslim woman to wear it (not that they should be forced to wear it in any country, even Muslim countries but that is besides the point).

And as I said, the reasoning behind wearing it is not relevant. It is the sacrifice these women are making to wear a hijab day in, day out regardless of the weather is really all that matters. And they do it because of their religious belief and connection to their Allah, why would they want to diminish its value by forcing strangers to wear hijabs as well? (Everything else in my post, I.e. Hakaras Hatov, not forcing religion onto strangers, etc. applies to Muslims as well).

ora_43

Sun, Feb 26 2017, 8:45 am

wondergirl wrote:

And as I said, the reasoning behind wearing it is not relevant. It is the sacrifice these women are making to wear a hijab day in, day out regardless of the weather is really all that matters. And they do it because of their religious belief and connection to their Allah, why would they want to diminish its value by forcing strangers to wear hijabs as well? (Everything else in my post, I.e. Hakaras Hatov, not forcing religion onto strangers, etc. applies to Muslims as well).

The idea that forcing others to cover their hair diminishes the value of hair covering is based in a specific set of beliefs regarding hair covering. For example, that it's about the individual's connection to Hashem more than it is about community norms re: modesty.

Many Muslim clerics do not share those beliefs. Hence, no diminishing of value in their eyes.

wondergirl

Sun, Feb 26 2017, 8:50 am

ora_43 wrote:

Can you elaborate on the bolded? What do they believe and why do they think its okay to force non-Muslims to adhere to their religious dress code?

ora_43

Sun, Feb 26 2017, 9:14 am

wondergirl wrote:

Can you elaborate on the bolded? What do they believe and why do they think its okay to force non-Muslims to adhere to their religious dress code?

I can only give a rough overview. There are a lot of Muslim websites if you want to check there. Of course like with Judaism there are many different opinions on each aspect of Islam.

Rough overview
- Islam believes in the spread of Islam. There aren't really Muslims and non-Muslims so much as people who should practice Islam and do, and people who should practice Islam but don't. Same as with Christianity. Jews believe Hashem only commanded our nation to practice Judaism (and the rest of the world got fewer rules), Christians and Muslims believe everyone is equally commanded to follow their religions.

- The hijab is seen in some areas as a basic part of modesty. Together with part #1, this means it's no more appropriate or modest for a non-Muslim to go without a hijab than a Muslim.

- Mideast societies tend to be collectivistic, not individualistic. Long story short, that means clothes are more about "am I dressing appropriately for my community" than "am I expressing my true inner self."

Again this is a VERY rough overview, and certainly doesn't describe all of Islam or all of Arab culture. But it might explain some of why *some* clerics see asking a woman to cover her hair as a request for basic modesty, not as a way of sharing their own sacred customs. (FTR, there are similar things in the Jewish world too, mostly in neighborhoods belonging to certain hareidi/chassidic groups).

cbsp

Sun, Feb 26 2017, 9:21 am

ora_43 wrote:

So, roughly, it would be similar to an American expecting appropriate attire from a visiting dignitary like shirts, shoes, etc?

wondergirl

Sun, Feb 26 2017, 9:50 am

ora_43 wrote:

Aren't the bolded the very reasons why LePen and her followers want to ban all religious garb? To prevent Muslims from forcing their religion onto non-Muslims? Is she so wrong to ban religious garb altogether if Muslims have the intent of forcing their religion onto non-Muslims?

And if you say that Muslims only wear a hijab for modesty reasons, then why does it particularly have to be a hijab, why can't they wear a cap which I assume would still be legal even if religious garb is banned? They would still be allowed to cover up for modesty reasons but would not be able to force their religion onto anyone.

Do LePen and her followers not have the right to self-defense and self-autonomy when it comes to religious tyranny?

Ruchel

Sun, Feb 26 2017, 10:44 am

40 years ago you saw very few open kippas in the street (not for safety, because it simply wasn't done). The new generation is very very different, to the dismay of some parents lol. I must say I'd be really annoyed if my husband and sons had to cap hat or caps. But if it proved useful against Islamization (I don't believe it would)...

In any case I understand why non jews are fed up being ill treated for pork, shorts, bathing suits (I say ill treated very nicely, there have been stabbings over shorts including of a 9 year old last summer, the trend is in some areas over Western Europe - for some reasons German news aren't heard of but very worrying in highly Islamic areas).

PinkFridge

Sun, Feb 26 2017, 10:46 am

wondergirl wrote:

Wondergirl, don't think I'm ignoring you. I replied off the cuff before reading the rest of the thread and am going to sit back for a bit till I have a chance to think this through.

Last edited by PinkFridge on Sun, Feb 26 2017, 10:49 am; edited 1 time in total

ora_43

Sun, Feb 26 2017, 10:51 am

wondergirl wrote:

Some Muslim women do use coverings that are slightly different from a hijab. I've seen Muslim women wearing turtlenecks and a scarf, for example. The hijab is convenient because it covers the whole head and the neck.

I'm definitely not saying that all Muslims want to force their religion on non-Muslims! Especially not in non-Muslim countries; a lot of Muslim immigrants go there to get away from the whole religion-forcing thing.

Not that it's a non-issue, but - there are all kinds of Islam and all kinds of Muslims. Kinda like how in Mea Shearim there are signs up telling people - all people, Jewish or not - to dress according to strict (by Western standards) standards of modesty, but that doesn't mean the average Jew in Germany or Arizona wants to force everyone to wear long-sleeved shirts.

wondergirl

Sun, Feb 26 2017, 12:56 pm

Ruchel wrote:

It seems like Le Pen is a very tough person, she certainly seems to have the balls to lead a country and protect her people from harm. She is not going to lie down and let others walk all over her or her country and she is unapologetic about it as she addresses German Chancellor Merkel in this video.
So why would you, as a Jew, not vote for her and why would she not win the election altogether given the danger you are facing from Muslim extremists?

Ruchel

Mon, Feb 27 2017, 3:22 am

Marine has many +++, not going to lie. But while SHE isn't imo antisemitic or "dangerous", some of the people she brings with her... No thanks. Think Trump, basically, but with a brain a good expression... But still some very ver very questionable friends and colleagues.

Also, I want kippa. And I still want the French state to pay my kids' school, I like that the town pays their cantina, that they can do cheap trips. Except that as an attempt to kill Muslim schools, she will have to stop funding any religious school. Hence Jewish school will become very expensive. Not like America, but very expensive, hundreds of euros. Though she plans to give a salary to sahms, so... maybe it could balance itself lol. In the end, not going to happen. Too many people are afraid of her. Had she cleaned up her party completely, I have no doubt that she could be elcted.

While for me it's a no, there's a growing trend among Jews to vote for her, and of course most will be voting "other" rights. I'm happy that at least my country gets it. Some of our neighbours are still totally submitted to the medias and the liberals.