For those who make their daughter wear tights after age 3

Jewishmom8

Thu, Feb 23 2017, 4:45 am

my girls wear tights starting age three outside of the house.
but I only start it the winter after they turn 3.
meaning my daughter who has a birthday in July gets socks to wear until it gets cold and then she gets really cute colorful winter tights. the spring and summer after that I just get her lighter stocking or whatever kind she wants.

Ruchel

Thu, Feb 23 2017, 5:57 am

I'm very sensitive to heat and tights are my last problem. I hardly feel them, they cut the sun bite (hate sun), and no you won't pass out (!!!!!!) from tights.

My girls wear tights from very young. Outside, obviously. I'm ok with knee highs, or even little socks with a long skirt. I give the choice. My oldest prefers tights because then she is free to move.

It helps that "everyone" does around them. At school they don't let knee socks until a certain age when the girls can behave.

FranticFrummie

Thu, Feb 23 2017, 6:50 am

My DD is super sensory, and as a small child would only wear cotton tights or socks. Now that she's older, she'll only wear leggings and socks under her skirt. IMHO, leggings are the most tznius.

If you have an active child who loves the monkey bars, they are the best way to go. I've seen lots of little girls at the Shabbos park, hanging upside down and showing the world their sheer tights and flowered underwear. shock

little neshamala

Thu, Feb 23 2017, 9:09 am

amother wrote:

I am having trouble with my daughter (age 4) wearing tights all the time as I did not grow up this way. We are yeshivish and my husband wants her to be used to it young and not have her struggle with it, but just accept that this is how it is. She hates hates hates tights and finds them very uncomfortable. I don't understand why she can't wear knee socks or leggings with socks. But he only wants tights. I personally have issues with wearing tights and prefer socks as the material drives me crazy.

For those of you whose daughters wear tights from when they are little, do you do this year round, in the summer time as well? Have your kids ever overheated/passed out from wearing tights in 100 degrees or hotter weather? Do you have any leniencies? Please share that they are ok so I won't be as nervous about hot weather and tights. I have crazy anxiety about the upcoming summer. Thank you.

OP, you mentioned you personally hate wearing tights, and this isnt how you grew up...please clarify....do you yourself wear tights all the time or just socks?

As an aside, you need to remember that chinuch is always about keeping your eye on the end goal. What is the long term goal? That your daughter will grow up to be a bas yisrael with excellent middos who strives to grow in ruchniyos, and dresses tzniyusdikly, on her own, because she wants to.

So you need to ask yourself, is what youre doing going to accomplish only a short term goal (having your small child modestly dressed in tights), or will it also accomplish your long term goal of having a grown daughter who dresses modestly?

Personally, I think that if your daughter is showing signs of resistance now, that may be a sign that forcing extra tznius rules on her can ch"v backfire completely in your long term goal.

So please be careful, and why not ask a Rav for some hadracha?

amother

Tangerine

Thu, Feb 23 2017, 9:21 am

Blessing1 wrote:

I can't believe all of you who make it sound like OP's DH is crazy. Every man has his chumras & this is a normal chumra that many people hold of. She asked for advice & not for an opinion on her husband. For all you know you might have caused her shalom Bayis issues..

Every man has his chumras - but no, it is not normal, and it is not okay, and it is cruelty, to force your chumros onto a little 3 year old girl who is very uncomfortable in tights.

And imposing your chumros on someone who is very uncomfortable with them usually backfires.

gold21

Thu, Feb 23 2017, 9:49 am

Iymnok wrote:

There there is no "Gil chinuch" there is a range. Ages three to 9.
This is because each child matures differently and each mitzvah and mnhag can only be started at a different age. The child has o be physically and emotionally ready.
(Ex, A child who just started to talk does not need to say brachos)
The issur yichud with a girl is age 3, that may be where that age is chosen from.

Issur yichud is:

Girl age 12, Boy age 9
OR
Boy age 13, Girl age 3

So technically, according to this, a girl is considered to come to maturity at age 12.

A boy comes to maturity at 13, and to protect little girls in case the 13 year old boy has serious psychological issues, he should not be left alone with any unrelated non-infant females. So it's not that the female comes to maturity at 3, it's that the halacha is set up to protect little girls from creeps.

Blessing1

Thu, Feb 23 2017, 10:06 am

We spent a few Shabbosim this past summer at the Yeshiva of south fallsburg. Majority of the 3 year old in the community where in tights.
It's in no way cruel! Everyone holds differently, but cruel? No one passed out or died from wearing tights! If the mom complains about it & makes a big deal, then of course the kids don't want to wear it. It's all in the attitude with which you present it.

amother

Tangerine

Thu, Feb 23 2017, 10:12 am

Blessing1 wrote:

Look, I grew up yeshivish in a very yeshivish community. I don't think kids wearing tights at age 3 is cruel.

I do think that forcing a 3 year old kid who is very uncomfortable and sensory wearing tights, is really cruel. Especially since there is no halacha involved whatsoever here, it is, as you said a chumrah.

And no, it is not all in the attitude with which you present it. My sensory sensitivities didn't go away even when my mother presented the tights to me with a lot of positivity.

33055

Thu, Feb 23 2017, 10:23 am

pizza4 wrote:

It's all in the way you give it over. My daughters were thrilled and couldn't wait to be able to wear tights! I did wait till the winter after they turned 3, but the next summer was fine... If they ever want to take them off at home im fine with that, too.

I agree with you. Look at OP's title. She believes this is unreasonable, so her daughter will pick up on it.

My daughter hated tights, but this how it is done in my circles. My daughter is very compliant except for the tights. Children's parents will judge if something is different, and I didn't want to risk her being marginalized.

I allowed her to wear baggy tights. I also put a pair of cotton over the knee socks under her tights. She liked this better and she never got heat stroke. At home she can take off her tights but can't show her legs outside her bedroom.

I hate tights and strongly avoid them by wearing mostly tea length skirts. My daughter, as a young lady, OTOH puts them on with no complaints.

gold21

Thu, Feb 23 2017, 10:26 am

Squishy wrote:

At 3, she couldn't show her legs outside the bedroom?

Chayalle

Thu, Feb 23 2017, 10:29 am

I believe the Mishna Brurah brings tznius beginning at age 3, and IIRC those who start tights at age 3 go by this. A couple of years ago, we had a (former) neighbor who held this and he tried to get others in the neighborhood to go by this as well - he gave DH a whole drasha that our DD should be wearing tights. DH asked our Rav, who said the Chazon Ish says 5 or 6 for tznius (and not necessarily tights), and he was also a Talmid Chacham.

That being said, my 18 year old DD now wears tights daily to seminary - they dress up with shorter skirts, stockings, etc.. - and I don't find that her many years of knee socks and/or leggings tucked into her boots made this transition to tights a struggle for her. In fact, she has taken to it quite naturally.

My 8 year old wears tights to school - rule in 3rd grade - and again, no struggle whatsoever - and she has been wearing socks until now - and should I mention, is quite a sensory child - I was worried it would be an issue, but B"H it's not. Maybe at this age, it's easier for her than it would've been at 3? She never used to wear tights.....

OP, do you and your DH have a Rav or Mechanech guiding you for this? I've found their insights to be invaluable. Interestingly, I'm positive that our Rav's daughters wore tights, likely from age 3, and yet he has never paskened this for us.

amother

Tangerine

Thu, Feb 23 2017, 10:36 am

Chayalle wrote:

. Maybe at this age, it's easier for her than it would've been at 3? She never used to wear tights.....

Once children are older, they can often learn to manage sensory issues better. Plus, they have more of an understanding as to why they should be wearing it, can try to make things more comfortable, and most of the time want to wear it too as most girls their age are wearing it.

If they are forced to wear it since they're 3 and have no say in the matter, are too young to appreciate why, and then have years of discomfort associated with tights and tznius - it can be very problematic. I struggled for years with tznius because of this. I remembered how miserable I was in tights. I never wear tights anymore, because of all the associations I have. If you're putting tights on a kid who finds them uncomfortable and is sensory so that they keep wearing tights when they're older, that's just foolish and counterproductive. Let them wear it when they're ready, or old enough to cope with it better.

poelmamosh

Thu, Feb 23 2017, 10:43 am

Iymnok wrote:

AIUI, it is not exclusively about chinuch. The essence of the debate is the cutoff point for exposed legs/arms to be considered ervah. Some say (as you pointed out) it comes with issur yichud. Others maintain that it's only a problem from the earliest stages of puberty.

amother

Jetblack

Thu, Feb 23 2017, 12:14 pm

Squishy..how can you put tights on your daughter when you hate it so much that you dont wear it. Im truly baffled how a mother can put something so uncomfortable on their child when they wont put it on themselves. I'm sure your a great mom but please think about this. A child in tights all summer long is spending their life sticky hot and uncomfortable; its seriously a big deal. Please speak to a Rav. Placing knee socks under tights is a creative idea and you can see your trying to work with your daughter which is great; but it makes your daughter so so much hotter. She doesnt need to have a heat stroke to be truly hot and uncomfortable. Mothers have rachmanus on your kids! Especially on your little ones that have little say and can have a hard time expressing their discomfort. There are many people in very yeshivish circles that dont do this to their kids. Please speak to a Rav before imposing this on your child.Hatzlacha! Very Happy

debsey

Thu, Feb 23 2017, 12:44 pm

amother wrote:

I do leggings with socks for sensory kids. Totally not a problem or struggle. They're supersoft and there's absolutely no tznius issue. Plus you can get cute patterns that three year olds love (rainbow stripes, hearts...etc).

I had a neighbor (guy is a bit odd, so glad I'm not living near him anymore) who tried to convince my husband that the "leggings with socks" look is not tznius (I think his daughter wanted to wear what she saw my daughter wearing). My husband told the guy quite politely that the mitzvah isn't to "wear tights" the mitzvah is to "cover erva" and if he doesn't like it, he just has to suffer (but said so much more nicely than I said it).

Then in grade school, you transition to tights. I find the soft, knit opaque tights are much less triggering than thinner versions. I also wash tights carefully because the seams do become rough.

33055

Thu, Feb 23 2017, 1:28 pm

amother wrote:

Poeple are very judgemental about externals, and it is hard for children to be different than their peers. If all the little girls are in tights and one isn't, that little girl will be ostracized and judged as not as frum enough to play with the others. Only by looking at the whole picture, did I make the decision that tights are a necessary korbon for her acceptance. Believe me I have also heard the criticisms about her baggy tights disguised as helpful comments.

My daughter has complained about cold when the thermometer was over 90°. I am not worried about her and heat; however, I also spoke to her pediatrician who is a frum guy and expressed my concerns about tights. I am prone to UTIs and was worried about that aspect and athletes foot.

I choose to speak to the pediatrician rather than the rav because mine is chassidish and no way would he say no tights. He wouldn't compromise on this.

sky

Thu, Feb 23 2017, 4:12 pm

didn't read the whole thread - but got to the point where people starting pointing fingers that wearing tights at 3 isn't required.

There are those that do hold it is required.

I recently heard a great speech - that when a person starts wearing shorter skirts everyone keeps quiet for fear of offending or pushing off the person further. But when people try to do more they get told all sorts of things. The person said everyone should mind their own business. who cars if skirts get shorter or tights are required. Everyone should keep their eyes on their own busness.