Leaving kids alone

amother

Seafoam

Sat, Feb 25 2017, 8:58 pm

gold21 wrote:

Your parents didn't have a nanny at home when they went to work? This was before the age of cell phones- what were you expected to do in case of emergency, if your parents were unreachable?

So, yeah, I was also given a lot more freedom and independence at 12/13. But that's age appropriate. I have no problem with that.

8 is very young.

You can raise accomplished successful independent kids without taking safety risks.

We did have a nanny. After school it was still several hours until one of my parents got home, and I was only left for about an hour at that age. There were still circumstances (like weekends) where it sometimes happened that they had to run out for a bit and I either couldn't or didn't want to go. They actually did have cell phones (the ones that looked like a brick and didn't work that well) and also beepers. I didn't need a cell phone, I was home and had the landline. In a true emergency, I knew which neighbors to go to for help. If you want to talk about safety risks, getting into a car is the most dangerous thing most Americans will do all day. And yet most Americans drive pretty much everywhere. Some things will require risks and not every risk is so black and white. Leaving a 4 year old alone is a definite no no. But 4 years later, it still has an element of risk, but you're not risking life and limb the same way you would be with a 4 year old.

gold21

Sat, Feb 25 2017, 9:23 pm

Safe Kids USA, a nonprofit advocacy organization in Washington that seeks to prevent accidental injury and death, also sees 12 as a turning point.

“Children under age 12 don’t have the cognitive ability to recognize risk and, just as important, don’t have the cognitive maturity to react to the risk or accident once it happens,” said Alan Korn, the group’s director of public policy and general counsel. “That concern is heightened when there are other children in the home. So many injuries and deaths can be prevented by appropriate, active adult supervision.”

Aylat

Sun, Feb 26 2017, 2:47 am

gold21 wrote:

It's not the type of thing where I would assess risk vs benefit. It wouldn't cross my mind. It's not even on my radar. It doesn't happen. Risk vs benefit should not apply to the safety of children- that's a risk that's never worth taking.

I don't even understand what this means. Your kids take risks all the time. Do they travel in cars? Ride bikes?

It's not really about risk, it's about perception. More people are scared of travelling of plane than by car, but travelling by car is much more risky.

ora_43

Sun, Feb 26 2017, 3:22 am

gold21 wrote:

I think you're misunderstanding risk/benefit.

The benefit is *reduction of a different risk.* You and all other parents aren't choosing between "no risk" and "risk," we're choosing between Risk A and Risk B.

Risks that are reduced by letting kids stay home alone can include - reduced odds of them being involved in a car crash, reduced odds of injury due to extreme weather conditions, reduced physical overexertion (eg if very hot out or if they are tired, and going out means lots of walking), reduced risk of poor literacy or bad grades (if they're spending the time at home reading or doing homework), reduced risk of poverty and all the dangers that entails (dangerous living environment, for instance) if staying home alone is allowing mom and/or dad to earn money at work.

Risks that are reduced by letting kids go outside alone (if kids going out alone means they go outside more often, which is true in many if not most families) - reduced odds of: poor eyesight, overweight, poor coordination, vitamin D deficiency, depression.

ora_43

Sun, Feb 26 2017, 3:23 am

gold21 wrote:

Regarding helicopter parenting- I have a neighbor who has a large family KA"H and she teaches her kids to be independent at a young age. Her kids cook (from around age 8, they are in the kitchen preparing Shabbos food every week, girls and boys alike) they clean (she doesn't have cleaning help, her kids do the work), they put away their own laundry, they do homework on their own, they bathe the younger ones, etc.- they are not mollycoddled at all... But she would never leave her kids home alone under age 12. She's more nervous than I am to let the kids bike around the corner!

Safety and independence do NOT go hand in hand. False equivalence.

Knowing how to do chores is not the entire meaning of "independence."

amother

Slategray

Sun, Feb 26 2017, 6:07 am

I was SHOCKED onetime when I was outside my friend's apartment with her knowing she left her one year old inside with her husband, suddenly I see him around the corner coming to talk to her. I was like, huh? where's your kid? she's like, inside in his crib he's fine. I feel like the mentality of leaving your young child really really shocked me. it would make me so nervous. she said she regularly leaves him in his crib for short periods (5-10 minutes) and leaves the house for quick errands. She said he's happy in his crib and plays quietly so I understand there is minimal risk in leaving him for 10 minutes but it makes me so so nervous. I get nervous leaving my sleeping child for 45 seconds when I occasionally go throw out the garbage and race back into the house. I know it's crazy but just the thought of her all alone is so nerve-wracking. it just seems so wrong.

ceebee

Sun, Feb 26 2017, 6:52 am

This thread reminds me of an incident that occurred a few months ago. I regularly allow my 8 year old son to play outside by himself on our block. He usually finds other children and they have a good time. One day, he comes back with 3 police officers in tow. They tell me they "found" him on the corner of my block. Mind you, this was on the sidewalk, on the same side my house is on. He did not even cross the street, but he is responsible enough to cross anyway.

The officer says my son is only 8. I could not believe it! I did not want to get into a whole discussion with them about responsible free-range kids so I just took my son in and thanked them. But this is why children are barely outside anymore. I hate this view that children should be kept inside and over-supervised at all times.
Right after this incident, my son who generally is an active, outdoorsy kid, was so scared to play outside without me hovering around. It is a shame these officers don't understand that kids who are given independence learn skills such as responsibility and autonomy. Over-supervised kids whose parents helicopter around don't learn these skills because their parents do it for them.

Aylat

Sun, Feb 26 2017, 8:28 am

Not talking babies and toddlers here. Elementary school kids.

Question for posters who are nervous to leave their children home or let them play outside alone. What ages do you allow your kids to do other risky activities: eg use matches, boil water, use the oven, use hammer and nails, use sewing machine or electric screwdriver, climb ladders, climb trees? Is the way in which you teach your kids to do these things safely similar to the way you train them how to be safe at home/outside alone? Eg talking about risks and rehearsing what to do if things go wrong, demonstrating the skill, allowing them to carry out the task under your direct supervision, then remove the supervision gradually as appropriate until they are able to do it alone.

I am asking because it seems like many people put this skill (being safe and confident at home alone is a skill) in a completely different category than other skills, and I'm wondering why.

amother

Indigo

Sun, Feb 26 2017, 9:04 am

ora_43 wrote:

Knowing how to do chores is not the entire meaning of "independence."

Oh? So what do you mean by independence?.... The ability to cook, clean, and care for oneself doesn't rate as independence to you because the child isn't left home alone for extended periods of time? Really?

So apparently you agree with the suggestion that by choosing not to leave ones child home alone after the age of 12, he/she will automatically turn into a teenager who cant do much more than tie his/her own shoes?..... Which if you take the time to think about it, you'll realize is a huge generalization and completely false....

What

amother

Indigo

Sun, Feb 26 2017, 9:08 am

ceebee wrote:

Parents don't supervise kids for fun. They do it for safety. This world isn't one big happy gumball machine full of bouncing sweet happy pink gumballs. Do you ever read the news? We are supposed to trust in Hashem to keep His kinderlach safe while still doing our hishtadlus.

Why do you feel the need to criticize responsible parents to make yourself feel better about your choices? OK, I don't think that letting an 8 yr old play outside by himself is necessarily a bad thing, it depends on the circumstances, but you shouldn't feel the need to criticize moms who would choose a different parenting strategy.

amother

Blush

Sun, Feb 26 2017, 9:27 am

Aylat wrote:

There is a difference between staying home alone and the other skills you mention in that staying home alone involves a much larger number of of potential scenarios, as well as scenarios that are not directly related to the child's skills. If I have, for example, taught my daughter to fry an egg and have supervised her enough times to see that she knows how to do it safely, then I would let her do it unsupervised because the fact that she has mastered that skill minimizes the danger to a very small level. Plus, I am able to accurately assess her proficiency with this skill. With staying home alone, there are many outside circumstances that could come into play c"v - medical emergencies, fires, etc. As much as I teach and prepare her, I can't really assess how she would respond in an emergency. This puts it in a somewhat different category than the others.

That being said, it is probably not so much that people consider this a different category. More like they feel that this "skill" is only mastered at an older age because of the variables and level of responsibility involved. Yes, an adults may also not respond properly in an emergency, but it is reasonable and fair to rest such a responsibility on an adult, or on a teenager. I don't think it is reasonable to rest that responsibility on a 10 year old.

amother

Beige

Sun, Feb 26 2017, 9:47 am

Aylat wrote:

Like I said on the other thread, I don't believe in making decisions based on what others do. Your neighbourhood setup is different, your kids are different.

Having said that, if you are asking what I do:

I would leave my 6 yr old at home by himself (or my 6 and 7 y.o at home together) for up to about an hr, while I am approx a 5 minute walk away and have my phone with me.

I would (sometimes) leave my 9 y.o in charge of my 3 y.o in the same circumstances. Depends on more of the details and his mood/preparedness at the time. Only if he is willing and ready to be fully present with him and responsible.

I would without question leave my 11 y.o (and did also when she was 10) in charge of my 3 (at the time, 2) y.o in the circumstances as above. She is very mature and responsible. She has just started babysitting for other families and will beH be doing the next first aid/CPR course available.

While my DH is sleeping in the house after a night shift, all my kids except the 3 y.o are allowed to be home for several hours while I am a drive away. My 9 y.o is allowed to be in charge of my 3 y.o under those circumstances.

I have just started allowing my 11 y.o to be in charge of my 6 y.o while I was a half hr drive away for a couple of hrs. I confirmed with a friend living on the next road that she is in the area and available by phone if anything were to happen.

This is not exactly what you asked, but in terms of going out alone (relevant context - I live in a small yishuv in Israel):

My kids from 6 y.o up are allowed to range alone up to about 10 mins from our house. 6 and 7 y.o have to be home before dark.

From the time he was 5, DC was allowed to be in charge of 2/3 y.o in the vicinity of our house (could see them from our window).

From the time she was 9, my daughter, who was mature and responsible, was allowed to take the toddler to any of the neighbourhood parks. My DC who is 9 at the moment is not always allowed to take out the 3 y.o because he is not as responsible and aware.

How convenient for you that your parenting philosophy allows your older children to take care of your younger ones much of the time.

ora_43

Sun, Feb 26 2017, 10:32 am

amother wrote:

If your husband allowed you to cook and clean for yourself, but didn't allow you to leave the house alone, would he be respecting your independence? If you had a friend who could cook and clean but was entirely dependent on another adult, 24/7, would you consider her fully independent the same way most adults are?

Quote:

So apparently you agree with the suggestion that by choosing not to leave ones child home alone after the age of 12, he/she will automatically turn into a teenager who cant do much more than tie his/her own shoes?..... Which if you take the time to think about it, you'll realize is a huge generalization and completely false....

That's quite a straw man you've built. If you're actually looking for someone to argue those points with, maybe pick someone who's actually said those things?

Laiya

Sun, Feb 26 2017, 10:36 am

amother wrote:

It's worth noting that in New York, 7 year olds can legally walk to school alone. So even the state is acknowledging that the issue is not so clear-cut.

sweetpotato

Sun, Feb 26 2017, 10:43 am

I'm 31. I grew up in a regular upper-middle-class neighborhood in a small city. My parents were regular, responsible people and so were our neighbors. I was allowed to stay home alone during the day while my mom went on errands (I.e. grocery store a 5-minute drive away) around when I was 8 and my sister was 5 (I think my mom would usually take my preschool-aged brother with her). When I was 10, I babysat them regularly (afternoons and in the evenings, till around 10 pm), which I loved doing. At 12 I started babysitting for neighborhood families (I took a CPR and babysitting safety course first). By 6 I walked part way home from school (which was around the corner--my mom met me at our corner), by 8 I could also go on short walks around the neighborhood and ride my scooter or bike around the block, by 10-11 I could walk to friends' houses, (with my younger siblings, often), by 12 I could bike, and take the bus to the shopping area with friends. I didn't have a cell phone then but would call my mom when I arrived my destination or was heading home. I took the babies and toddlers I babysat on walks around the neighborhood and to local parks. The only issue I ever remember coming up was when I was about 13 and babysat a 1 year old several mornings a week during the summer. I took him to play in the backyard and accidentally got locked out. I didn't have a cell phone, but I went to a neighbor to use her phone, called the mother (whose number I memorized) and she told me where to find a spare hidden key. This kind of thing would be even easier nowadays when kids have cell phones (I used to memorize so many phone numbers just by default, to use payphones, etc!)

My friends all grew up similarly and their parents had similar approaches. I remember learning in preschool about stop, drop and roll, how to call 911, not answering the phone or door if a stranger comes, and other safety issues. I knew my phone number and address, how to walk to my grandparents' house 3 blocks away, which houses our friends lived at, other phone numbers to memorize in case of emergency.

I have no question that I'll apply a similar approach to my kids. The US is significantly safer than it was even when I was a kid, not long ago, and we have so many additional safety features (cell phones, mainly) that make it even safer.

If I were to take the opposite approach, assuming the need to avoid all harm no matter the actual risk, then logically the first step would be to never put my children in a car, which is by far the most dangerous situation I put them into.