Frum-but public school???

amother

Coral

Thu, Mar 09 2017, 10:06 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

You mention that your steps biological mother became not religious. It would be safe to assume that contributed mightily to the reason why the children aren't religious. If she wasn't religious, it is reasonable to assume she did not take their religious education seriously. That is quite different than parents who choose to send their frum children to PS and work actively to continue a childs religious education in the home and supplement it with additional more formal instruction.

As to kids in PS being subject to many classes of children, I cannot argue with that. It's true, they get to meet and work with people outside their religious community. This is rather helpful when they go out into the world of higher education or in the workforce at large. And like Frum Jews there are good and bad individuals that aren't frum. That is a fact of human nature.

Frum boys who hang out at pizza parlors are no different than those that are not frum. Hanging out is the issue, not the secular education. And in public schools there are those parents who are not frum and still don't let their kids hang out at malls, theaters or pizza parlors and are very concerned about the families that their children visit with.

I quite understand that you may have a bad taste in your mouth, but blaming someones drug addiction on public schooling is a stretch. We have sufficient overdoses, and deaths by addiction in our community. No one talks about it nor is it publicized, unhappy troubled people self medicate with the poison of their choice. It happens across society. One of the jobs of being a parent is recognizing whether your kid is at risk and being able to discuss making good choices with them.

As to all the druggies your husband had as friends, I'm not even going to go there. Either you husband went to a school where drug use was endemic or he made friends with the wrong crowd.

I'm speaking as a public schooled parent whose children went to public schools and grandchildren have as well. PS doesn't work for every frum Jew, but it is possible to raise good Jewish kids while attending public school. It's up to the parents to do their own evaluations of a public school, the district and the system before deciding where to place their children. It's called making an informed choice.

I knew someone would take every word I said, and either make their own assumptions or say it happens in the frum world too. My goal wasn't to compare both worlds. I am not denying that underage relations and drugs happen in the frum world nor did my husband go to a PS in a bad area, it was actually in quite a normal nice area. My point was to say my story and since I had negative experiences then yes I do have a bad taste in my mouth and I'm fully entitled to that.

MagentaYenta

Thu, Mar 09 2017, 10:50 pm

amother wrote:

Please read my post again. At no point did I deny you your opinions. You are free to have bad feelings and hang on to them as long as you wish.

FWIW as a parent I would take some serious action if my son were hanging out with people who were abusing drugs. And if they were in a school that had drug problems as serious as you represent I'd pull my kid from that school. I'm very different than your inlaws as to how I would approach these issues, but as a parent who chose public education for her children, I put a lot of time and thought into it. That's one of the reasons why I chose schools in districts that drug tested before any child participated in an extra curricular activity, including stuff like French or chess club.

amother

Wine

Thu, Mar 09 2017, 10:56 pm

Public schools don't allow bullying? Haha. My ds39 was bullied so much in his public high school the dean said they couldn't keep him safe. The reason? He wore a kippah. Not anymore...a complete atheist. Another ds, now in his 20s was bullied so much in his yeshiva dorm, I had to take him to the ER for possible concussion. It's a miracle he is not totally OTD. He's not frum, but consevadox. While my dd, now in sem, felt the hanhala at her Bais Yaakov was emotionally abusive to some degree, I feel strongly it is worlds away from a public school.

I am a former teacher, and public school is not a fit environment for a frum kid. There is so much in-your-face sexualization, ultra-liberal indoctrination (in direct opposition to Torah), and rampant drug use that I don't see how one would consider it. Try this....go park outside the high school parking lot during lunch or after school and see what goes on. Nuff said.

Perhaps homeschooling could be an alternative if the yeshivos by you are not suitable. It is becoming more common and can be a great way to make sure the lemudei chol is at a higher level.

amother

Coral

Thu, Mar 09 2017, 10:58 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

Okay how many parents know about drug abuse? My husband and his friends all hid it from their parents, my husband was able to quit young and didn't do any hardcore drugs but the ones that went on to become druggies eventually couldn't hide it. But it all started in HS without their parents knowing. How many of the "bad influence" kids are taking chess and French??? Most schools do not drug test before extra curricular activities. You want to argue back and forth about why PS is so great? Choose someone else to argue with becusee no one will convince me that PS is good unless it's in in a particularly wealthy smart area and they drug test (which btw there's drug abuse too but perhaps to a smaller extent) but c'mon drug abuse, (and the s@x stuff I mentioned) is even seeping into yeshiva students and it's been in public schools for decades already. I just don't think people should be naive as to what goes on there. Im glad you made the right decision for your kids because that's entirely up to you and not anyone else.

amother

Coral

Thu, Mar 09 2017, 11:00 pm

amother wrote:

Thank you for validating what I've been trying to say in my posts. I forgot to write about the bullying in PS. That's for another day. But what bothers me to the most about PS is the sexualization as you explain it.

amother

Aubergine

Fri, Mar 10 2017, 12:06 am

The model of public school supplemented with limudei Kodesh has not proven successful. Day schools have a much better track record. (Think college vs GED in the other thread. There are some success stories for people with the barest education, but statistics are clear that a college education correlates with higher income.)

The issue is how much you value religious education and how much you would care of your children were not observant. We can't know that.

Families have uprooted themselves to ensure a good Jewish education for their children. How far are you willing to go?

I know some lovely religious adults who went to public school, and some totally unaffiliated types who had a yeshiva education. It can go either way, depending on the child and the school, but the numbers are compelling
You're a lot more likely to be a religious adult if you went to day school.

amother

Lemon

Fri, Mar 10 2017, 12:39 am

this is a VERY personal decision and I cannot advice you, as I am not in your shoes.

I have children.

I tought in both ps and jewish schools...

I personally went to ps.

If my child was unhappy in the jewish school, and I would have tried everything to solve the issues (given a second jewish school an attempt...) I would probably rather concider homeschooling than ps. Ive seen too much in ps to understand that this is NOT what I want for my child. I could go into detail, but what's the point? I know that many jewish schools have major problems, ive heared of children being bulliied... this imho can happen in any school unfortuantely. a good school (no matter if private or public) should have anti-mobbing-progammes etc and colaborate with parents. obvioulsy there are great and horrible ps and great and horrible jewish schools- it all depends on the kids, the staff, the headmaster... ps children are still exposed to things I dont want my children to be exposed to- hence id rather homeschool.

Jewishmom8

Fri, Mar 10 2017, 12:48 am

essie14 wrote:

And I went to yeshiva day school where at least 1/4 of the girls wore pants under their skirts and took off the skirt when not with their parents and people had secret boyfriends too. It has nothing to do with public school.

don't you think there is a difference?
if the worst thing the kid does in a yeshiva is wear pants under the skirt and then take it off later. and have a secret boyfriend. that is amazing.
that is WAAY better than the standard behavior that they are going to have to fight against every day in public school
you are going to rob your children of so much if you send them to public school.
it can never be the same as a kid in a regular yeshiva. NEVER
transmitting yiddishkiet to the next generation is the most important job you will ever have.
how could you risk that and send them to public school???
you can move to a place where there are cheaper schools or home school.
this is the most important job of your life.

Ruchel

Fri, Mar 10 2017, 3:27 am

Nowadays I'd worry about influences, but that depends on the child and the school. Also a boy may not want to have a heavy load of kodesh/night cheder after a full days and homework, that's definitely something to consider. With a girl you can go lighter halachically.

My husband went to cheder AND night cheder. It worked for him. It wouldn't have worked for me.

I went to public school in a sheltered, clean little town. My parents did say it was the last year they would have tolerated it... and while all kids "rabbi" to frei went, not all turned right (some turned much frummer, ftr). An option is Catholic (here they will NOT send your non Catholic child to religion class before I'm attacked I could name charedi people making that choice).

Personally I'd look into all other options before, including homeschooling (as badly considered as it is here), Chabad even though we're not into it (some Chabad schools will take what you can pay or even basically free here, my parents have friends who send their kids to a "low cost" Chabad school even though it means more than 4 hours trip each day).

amother

Plum

Fri, Mar 10 2017, 5:32 am

amother wrote:

As I said earlier I went to PS and have a child there now.

SO much has changed since I was a child. I was severely bullied, and back then the attitude was, "let kids work it out on their own". Now, especially in elementary school there is a much more proactive attitude towards managing conflicts between kids. My child's school has an anti bullying program, assemblies, posters about reporting it to adults (no more "don't be a tattletale") There is less of the problem some yeshivot have where administration favors a child because of who their parents are.

I would also say be cautious about the super uniformly upscale districts rather than saying they are so much better. Sometimes affluence can be an issue, or parental pressure can make the education offered in school itself look better than it really is. My child's school is neither rich nor poor and it's nice that we don't have crazy expectations to live up to--we don't hear about "everyone" going skiing in Colorado, or designer everything, and so on. There's only been the regular crazes like Shopkins and Pokemon, and some of those go through the more modern religious schools anyway.

amother

Denim

Fri, Mar 10 2017, 6:18 am

I went to an affluent area public school. I grew up in a conservative jewish family. I was one of a handful of Jews in the school and we were tormented on a daily basis with blatant antisemitism. By the time I was in middle school, I was very aware of others $exual relations and drug use. Because it was a richer area, kids were using harder drugs than marijuana.
I am now homeschooling my children due to special needs that couldn't be dealt with in Yeshiva. There is a very supportive group of homeschoolers in the new york area, from diverse backgrounds.

amother

Beige

Fri, Mar 10 2017, 6:29 am

You're in Brooklyn! - there are hundreds of Jewish schools to choose from. If the current yeshiva won't deal with the bullying, switch yeshivas.

I took some college level courses in a PS in Brooklyn and it was a scary place. I'm talking about in the heart of Flatbush - and I was scared for my safety.

My close relative (not in Bklyn but elsewhere on NY) sent her DD to PS because of bullying and her daughter wasn't frum anymore by 8th grade.
She finally got her into a kiruv type of high school but she's still not religious, maybe just traditional. This was with hiring private tutors, Sunday school and Jewish camp in the summer.

The nature of kids is to want to fit in and if your kids don't act, talk, dress and do the same things as the popular crowd, they won't be part of that crowd. Majority of kids will change to be able to join that crowd.

(Although if you have issues with frumkeit, maybe that is what you want?)

amother

Wheat

Fri, Mar 10 2017, 7:35 am

Didn't have time to read the whole post since I'm at work, but in a nutshell:
I'm a bt, grew up in Brooklyn, went to public schools, got an excellent education. I am a public school teacher, live OOT. My kids go to public school but they started off in yeshiva and after two years, I realized that they needed a better education than they were getting. Now they're in public schools studying art, music (they play instruments!), science (my daughter is planning to do an Intel Science project!), AP courses, sports, etc. in an academically supportive atmosphere where they're not looked down on for being intellectually curious, and where they're not judged if I don't wear stockings, or if they have questions. If I still lived in Brooklyn, I would have sent my kids to public school--there are plenty of gifted programs out there as well, aside from regular neighborhood schools.
Kids can get bullied anywhere--my kids who did spend time in yeshiva were bullied mercilessly--and even the teachers treated my kids and us horribly, although I'm not sure why. My kids have a mix of friends from different backgrounds, people have always been respectful of our practices--even at school birthday parties, just like any student with dietary restrictions would not be able to eat certain things, my kids understood this as well. We've been to pizza parties where moms asked if there was a way to accommodate my kids, and it all worked out. I'm happy for the diversity in our lives, it's something I didn't want to lose when I became frum, and I'm glad my kids don't live in a bubble. We have a very mixed family, with family members of different cultures, religions, etc., so this is all just normal for my kids.
Yes, there's definitely a huge financial savings and a better education--and the knowledge that my kids will be able to make a decent living with the tools we're giving them. We are not wealthy by any means, have a very modest home, but if we were still in yeshiva, I cannot imagine not having to be on public assistance to make ends meet. There is no way we would have been able to survive with tuition on top of normal expenses.
In the end, you have to do what works best for you and your family, and put their needs over those of anyone else. You know what those needs are, and you're guiding them to the future. I had to overcome pressure from some people in my frum life, but in the end, I realized those people weren't living my life and had no idea what it was like to be in my shoes--and my whole family is better off for the decisions my husband and I made.

Anon because lots of identifying info.

amother

Papaya

Fri, Mar 10 2017, 7:59 am

amother wrote:

Now they're in public schools studying art, music (they play instruments!), science (my daughter is planning to do an Intel Science project!), AP courses, sports, etc. in an academically supportive atmosphere where they're not looked down on for being intellectually curious, and where they're not judged if I don't wear stockings, or if they have questions.

Plenty of us have attended and send our children to yeshivas that offer all of the above. And many public schools around the country have cut music, arts, and AP classes. Just sayin'.

amother

Cerulean

Fri, Mar 10 2017, 8:28 am

OP here

thank you so much to everyone who took the time to respond.

I'm going to re read everything and think.......

sending to other yeshivas is not so easy, many yeshivas won't offer as much of a tuition break as I get now, and others wouldn't accept us for hashkafic reasons........
the ones with the better secular education are also the ones that cost way more....

yes, bullying has to be addressed and at times it is but it just starts again and again and again. These kids are relentless.

The school we would be zoned for are most likely Isaac Asimov. Which goes to 8th grade. Highschool I'm not sure yet, it's still a few years away and yes highschool is what it much scarier. We are basically in flatbush. I have to look at charter schools.
Homeschooling is not an option I work long hours in Manhattan.....
is there any way I can get them into a school in NYC? Just curious that would be great, they could come with me in the morning and come back in the evening, etc.

would love to connect with the other poster that offered to share her experiences

thank you

amother

Wheat

Fri, Mar 10 2017, 8:38 am

amother wrote:

Plenty of us have attended and send our children to yeshivas that offer all of the above. And many public schools around the country have cut music, arts, and AP classes. Just sayin'.

There is no way I would have been able to afford tuition in those yeshivas.

My kids are still receiving a far better education than they would have in the yeshiva system, based on my experiences, circumstances, etc. I am speaking as a public school educator and as a bt. I'm not looking to discuss vague budget cuts with you that don't affect my situation, and probably not the OP's situation since these programs are still offered in NYC.

OP, as for high schools in NYC, you can apply to special programs at individual high schools throughout the 5 boroughs. As for elementary programs, you should check out the DOE's website or ask around--kids usually have to stay in district for the younger grades but depending on the program there might be other options, but I'm not 100% sure.

amother

Papaya

Fri, Mar 10 2017, 9:18 am

amother wrote:

I'm well aware that they cost a lot more (though those schools also tend to offer more generous assistance). I think there are good reasons to send to public school, but no one should assume that it will solve whatever problems they're having with yeshiva. I also taught public school so I have some experience with different schools. If you're not in a good district, there's no guarentee of a passable education and no guarentee of anything beyond the basics. And while there are too many crummy yeshivas, there are also many that offer a top notch secular education. And things like bullying happen everywhere, some places address it well and others address it badly, and which way it goes has no correlation with type of school. If public school is the best choice for your family, that's great and that's where your kids should go. Just don't malign the yeshiva system or put public school on a pedestal. Not all yeshivas are equal and neither are all public schools.

Chana Miriam S

Fri, Mar 10 2017, 9:38 am

Oath of my children went to public high school after Jewish day school for various reasons. One has special needs and the other would have had to have her school day start at 5:45 and end at 7 because no Jewish hs here. Travel up to 4 hours per day. Plus, she would not be well supervised in the other city.

Almost all the girls who go to Jewish high school in the other city have boyfriends and party. My public school kid I always know where she is and who she is with. Mostly it's actually school related activity. She is a high honours strudent doing her international baccalaureate certificate. She is involved with a school athletic team as well as school theatre.

In her academic programme there are mostly Asians and Muslims. All of whom have pushy parents who want their kids getting 100 %. Good companions for her, who wants to get 100%. Also Muslim girls are more modest than she is. Also no boyfriends. It's awesome.

This morning we found out that she was admitted to the university of Waterloo aka MIT North into a programme which admits 50 from wAterloo and 50 from Wilfred Laurier. She only applied to Waterloo. I'm sure there were hundreds of applications. Her 96 %+ average plus her amazing extra curriculars did their jobs.

I'm not sorry. Not even a little, that she didn't go to Jewish girl school.

amother

Pewter

Fri, Mar 10 2017, 10:38 am

What about the *education* aspect of...education? I wish I could post this under my sn.

My mother is 69 years old. She grew up conservadox, although by today's standards would probably be considered closer to MO.

When my mother was going into second grade, she had frum cousins in yeshiva, and begged her parents to send her, but they didn't for financial reasons.

As long as I can remember, my mother has bemoaned the fact that she missed out on a yeshiva education. And yes, she attended Sunday Hebrew school. No comparison.

I give my mother lots of credit because she goes to tons of shiurim, listens in the car, and is trying to improve her Hebrew. But honestly, she'll never catch up to where she could've been had she received 12 years of yeshiva education.

For a boy, learning gemara skills, I imagine this gap would be even greater.

Re the s*xual issues, back when my mother was in public school these were laughably tame, but my mother also said she would never want her children put even into that (tame) environment.

Again, no comparison.