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This is for all you anti-feminists.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 13 2017, 12:19 pm
If you don't understand why feminism is important, these kids will 'splain it on you.

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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 13 2017, 12:21 pm
And before you go on about how this doesn't apply to the frum world, watch it again. At least 4.5 examples certainly apply.
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zohar




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 13 2017, 12:39 pm
Only the last student's argument is something that I find a feminist movement necessary, and the only one that modern feminists seem to ignore, ironically. The rest are examples of jerks that will always be around. (Catcalling will always be around, and fathers taking to their daughters like that 😯😬! I think they have more problems than "just"being a mysoginist pig.)
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ectomorph




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 13 2017, 12:43 pm
Wow, talk about condescending.

Do you support equal pay for equal work? Then you're a feminist. Now you are one of us.
Do you support the right of a fetus to live? Oh you can't be a feminist.
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ectomorph




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 13 2017, 12:44 pm
Oh and in order to have basic self respect you need to be feminist.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 13 2017, 12:46 pm
zohar wrote:
Only the last student's argument is something that I find a feminist movement necessary, and the only one that modern feminists seem to ignore, ironically. The rest are examples of jerks that will always be around. (Catcalling will always be around, and fathers taking to their daughters like that 😯😬! I think they have more problems than "just"being a mysoginist pig.)


The first one? A guy deciding that a woman wants to have seks with him? Have you read any of the threads here about women who were taught not to say no and don't really want to but they do anyway? And that's not even about the women who describe full rape.

I really don't understand what you're saying. Catcalling is disrespecting women and feminism educates people to respect women. And maybe fathers don't talk to their girls like that in the frum world generally, but yes, guys may easily adopt that approach.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 13 2017, 12:48 pm
ectomorph wrote:
Wow, talk about condescending.

Do you support equal pay for equal work? Then you're a feminist. Now you are one of us.
Do you support the right of a fetus to live? Oh you can't be a feminist.


Thanks for making **** up. No one said that if you're anti-choice you can't be a feminist. And certainly no one in the video I posted. But yeah, straw man argument and all that. Plenty of religious women are feminists and their beliefs do not include abortion.
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amother
Magenta


 

Post Mon, Mar 13 2017, 12:53 pm
marina wrote:
The first one? A guy deciding that a woman wants to have seks with him? Have you read any of the threads here about women who were taught not to say no and don't really want to but they do anyway? And that's not even about the women who describe full rape.

I really don't understand what you're saying. Catcalling is disrespecting women and feminism educates people to respect women. And maybe fathers don't talk to their girls like that in the frum world generally, but yes, guys may easily adopt that approach.


You don't think fathers talk to their daughters that way? Have you read the threads about girls needing to be a size 0, or 2, or 4, in order to marry? Do you remember threads about getting your daughter a nose job and some really good makeup, lest she become an old maid? Of course parents talk to their frum daughters that way.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 13 2017, 12:57 pm
amother wrote:
You don't think fathers talk to their daughters that way? Have you read the threads about girls needing to be a size 0, or 2, or 4, in order to marry? Do you remember threads about getting your daughter a nose job and some really good makeup, lest she become an old maid? Of course parents talk to their frum daughters that way.


True. Still the video is more crass, but what you wrote is true.
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 13 2017, 12:57 pm
The Australian school boy video is a nice little tribute to acting like a mentch, being a good parent, and contains a slight tip of the hat to equity feminism. And if "feminism" meant "acting like a mentch, being a good parent, and supporting legal and economic equity for women," well, sign me up!

Sadly, it doesn't.

The following video is perhaps less entertaining than a bunch of cute, racially-diverse, school-uniformed teenage boys, but it features well-known scholars (who just happen to be women) who've spent their professional lives researching and documenting the trajectory of the feminist movement. Both would readily identify themselves as equity feminists. Yet they point out that the "feminism" championed by the Australian boys is a far cry from how feminism currently defines itself.

No offense to the Australian kids, but I'm more influenced by people like Camille Paglia and Christina Hoff Sommers.

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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 13 2017, 1:03 pm
Fox wrote:
The Australian school boy video is a nice little tribute to acting like a mentch, being a good parent, and contains a slight tip of the hat to equity feminism. And if "feminism" meant "acting like a mentch, being a good parent, and supporting legal and economic equity for women," well, sign me up!

Sadly, it doesn't.


Yeah, but "acting like a mentch" is a fluid concept - it changes with every decade, with every century, with every society. A century ago, acting like a mentch included not allowing women to vote and certainly not to have educational opportunities and marital rape wasn't a concept at all. 50 years ago birth control was forbidden and women could be fired for being pregnant. You could do all that and still be a mentch.

I know you think that modern society has evolved to the point that we don't need any feminism shmeminsm, but maybe this video will make you think again.

And if you want to define feminism in the most narrow way possible, sure - many of us aren't feminists. Just like if being on the derech is defined as narrowly as possible, many of us are completely OTD.


Last edited by marina on Mon, Mar 13 2017, 1:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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zohar




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 13 2017, 1:06 pm
marina wrote:
The first one? A guy deciding that a woman wants to have seks with him? Have you read any of the threads here about women who were taught not to say no and don't really want to but they do anyway? And that's not even about the women who describe full rape.

I really don't understand what you're saying. Catcalling is disrespecting women and feminism educates people to respect women. And maybe fathers don't talk to their girls like that in the frum world generally, but yes, guys may easily adopt that approach.



I was discussing if these issues are prevalent or not in the frum world or not. There are jerks everywhere. I don't think rape in the western world is a feminist issue. It's a criminal, sociatal mental health issue. And I have huge issues with the modern feminist movement and their attitudes and methods. They are very alienating and counter productive and obnoxious.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 13 2017, 1:14 pm
zohar wrote:
I was discussing if these issues are prevalent or not in the frum world or not. There are jerks everywhere. I don't think rape in the western world is a feminist issue. It's a criminal, sociatal mental health issue. And I have huge issues with the modern feminist movement and their attitudes and methods. They are very alienating and counter productive and obnoxious.


There are more jerks everywhere when society finds it acceptable, which is when feminism is not a value.

Feminism at its core is respecting women and their bodies and their choices. And not just generally like "hey, good for me, I'm not a rapist, I get three gold stars," but more specifically, like:

* if I'm a male boss and my employee is a nursing mom, I will arrange for a private and comfortable space for her.

* If my friends joke about girls who are sluts or prudes, I tell them off

* If my community doesn't allow women to vote in community elections, I say something.

* If my wife wants to drive a car or stop shaving her head, I respect her decision even if causes me problems with the community.

* If I'm a frum boss, I don't pay my male workers with a family more than single girls for the same job.

See? Not so simple.
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 13 2017, 1:35 pm
marina wrote:
I know you think that modern society has evolved to the point that we don't need any feminism shmeminsm, but maybe this video will make you think again.


On the contrary, I believe we desperately need feminism.

Women in many parts of the world still desperately need equity feminism.

Women in the Western world desperately need to live in a world in which femininity is validated rather than seen as a cute add-on to more serious masculine characteristics.

Men in the Western world desperately need to live in a world in which their masculinity is affirmed rather than shamed.

If the contemporary feminist movement were really addressing any of those problems, I'd don a pink hat and hit the streets.

Instead, feminists are giving us intersectionality; poststructuralism; bickering over privilege and whether white women should be allowed to wear hoop earrings; and fluid gender identity. If you think I'm exaggerating, I would suggest following New Real Peer Review (@real_peerreview) on Twitter, which documents emerging feminist scholarship (among other things).

Most importantly, feminism is not teaching men to value women more. Like the Australian boys, they understand the basics of equity feminism. But they have little idea of how to channel their natural instincts to protect and care for women. They can't articulate what femininity brings to the world that is unique.

Oh, we definitely need feminism -- just not the feminism we've got.
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amother
Magenta


 

Post Mon, Mar 13 2017, 1:49 pm
Fox wrote:
bickering over privilege and whether white women should be allowed to wear hoop earrings;


OK.

There is a "free speech" wall at Pitzer, a relative small (but very highly regarded, sister school to the better-known Pomona) college in California. A college student wrote something about cultural appropriation of white women wearing hoop earrings. She then followed up with an email.

You now claim that this is mainstream feminist thought?

In fact, its just something that the right wing picked up, because its easy to poke fun at the excesses of college students. A lot easier than addressing real issues.
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zohar




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 13 2017, 1:52 pm
marina wrote:
There are more jerks everywhere when society finds it acceptable, which is when feminism is not a value.

Feminism at its core is respecting women and their bodies and their choices. And not just generally like "hey, good for me, I'm not a rapist, I get three gold stars," but more specifically, like:

* if I'm a male boss and my employee is a nursing mom, I will arrange for a private and comfortable space for her.

* If my friends joke about girls who are sluts or prudes, I tell them off

* If my community doesn't allow women to vote in community elections, I say something.

* If my wife wants to drive a car or stop shaving her head, I respect her decision even if causes me problems with the community.

* If I'm a frum boss, I don't pay my male workers with a family more than single girls for the same job.

See? Not so simple.


I'm going to respond to your bullets in order.
1.I don't find that to be a problem for the most part in frum society. People are very understanding of nursing mothers, maybe even more so than in secular society. Also, comfortable is relative.
2. Obviously. It definitely not a condoned behavior in frum society, (some would call it nivul peh). Not to say that there aren't jerks here too.
3. Does not apply here today, although I do think that if feminists we sincere, they would protest voting laws in many M.E. countries.
4. Personally, I don't think that shaving is a feminist issue (as in stemming from disrespect of woman), although I can understand others disagreeing with me. A husband should be supportive of these things, but there is a lot that comes with flouting the rules of the community, and if he is having a hard time, it does not mean he is a mysoginist. It has to be something solved as a couple. I do think the driving thing has to be addressed, but not as a feminist issue. I actually think that the move to the right on this issue is to be able to not accept the more "modern" crowd, but I believe that the large majority of ppl actually don't have a problem with women driving and would actually prefer it especially from a practicality perspective.
4. The reason single girls are paid less than men with families has much to do with experience. However, we still see this disparity with married mothers too. This has largely to do with the choices both parties are making. Take me for example. I work for a frum company. I could get a much larger salary if I worked for a large secular firm, but I choose to work here because my boss understands three Jewish calendar and understands that since he doesn't pay me like my husband gets paid, when one of us had to take off, it's going to be me. Like today for example. And when there is a sick child. To some extent, it's capitalism at play, and there are some who take advantage, but it's coming from the bottom line, financially, and not because they value women less. Also apply and demand, (teachers vs. Rebbeim).
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greenfire




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 13 2017, 1:56 pm
does this apply to running around purim things in shul where women have to watch the men drink, dance & get drunk like a skunk ?!?!?! yeah well it made me nauseous ...
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 13 2017, 2:02 pm
amother wrote:
In fact, its just something that the right wing picked up, because its easy to poke fun at the excesses of college students. A lot easier than addressing real issues.


Like I said, check out @real_peerreview on Twitter. How many explications of intersectionality do you need before you're willing to consider it "mainstream feminism." In fact, intersectionality is one of the key components of contemporary feminist theory.

Here's my guess:

I suspect that you, like virtually everyone on Imamother and every reasonable person in Western society, are an equity feminist. You probably believe that women should have legal and economic parity with men and should have the social agency to make decisions about their lives. Perhaps you even articulate that these things are "what feminism means to me."

Yasher koach, but contemporary feminism has left the station. Equity feminism is not "what feminism means" to feminist leaders and scholars. Deconstructionism and intersectionality can't simply be wished away.
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zohar




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Mar 13 2017, 2:05 pm
Fox wrote:
On the contrary, I believe we desperately need feminism.

Women in many parts of the world still desperately need equity feminism.

Women in the Western world desperately need to live in a world in which femininity is validated rather than seen as a cute add-on to more serious masculine characteristics.

Men in the Western world desperately need to live in a world in which their masculinity is affirmed rather than shamed.

If the contemporary feminist movement were really addressing any of those problems, I'd don a pink hat and hit the streets.

Instead, feminists are giving us intersectionality; poststructuralism; bickering over privilege and whether white women should be allowed to wear hoop earrings; and fluid gender identity. If you think I'm exaggerating, I would suggest following New Real Peer Review (@real_peerreview) on Twitter, which documents emerging feminist scholarship (among other things).

Most importantly, feminism is not teaching men to value women more. Like the Australian boys, they understand the basics of equity feminism. But they have little idea of how to channel their natural instincts to protect and care for women. They can't articulate what femininity brings to the world that is unique.

Oh, we definitely need feminism -- just not the feminism we've got.


This is perfect.
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amother
Magenta


 

Post Mon, Mar 13 2017, 2:42 pm
Fox wrote:
Like I said, check out @real_peerreview on Twitter. How many explications of intersectionality do you need before you're willing to consider it "mainstream feminism." In fact, intersectionality is one of the key components of contemporary feminist theory.

Here's my guess:

I suspect that you, like virtually everyone on Imamother and every reasonable person in Western society, are an equity feminist. You probably believe that women should have legal and economic parity with men and should have the social agency to make decisions about their lives. Perhaps you even articulate that these things are "what feminism means to me."

Yasher koach, but contemporary feminism has left the station. Equity feminism is not "what feminism means" to feminist leaders and scholars. Deconstructionism and intersectionality can't simply be wished away.


You're taking your view of feminism from anti-feminists. Its rather like attributing the words of Steve King or Carl Paladino to all Republicans. Or saying that all Republican are racists because the current Secretary of Energy frequented a hunting camp that was generally known as "n1ggerh3ad." Or reading Occupy Democrats and believing that's an accurate accounting of the right.
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