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"We're not looking for money".
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amother
Copper


 

Post Tue, Mar 14 2017, 11:57 am
I can speak only from the viewpoint of the mother of my sons. Dh and I make a modest living and live a modest lifestyle, within our means. Our sons know that they wouldn't feel comfortable marrying into a family with a fancy lifestyle. they could maybe handle marrying into a family that had what you might call hidden money, in other words, they have savings and investments against a rainy day but live fairly frugally.

Obviously, bills have to be paid, and we're not in a position to support, and so they want girls who have some sort of marketable skill and can make a living. this doesnt mean that theyre looking for "money". They can't afford to be paupers , though. As long as the bills can be paid, that's enough for them. They're not looking for doctors lawyers and Wall Street types.

One of my sons was read a girl from a moderately prominent family, not a Reichman or a Tisch but people who are quite comfortable and well known in their OOT community. Ds said immediately not shayach. I was disappointed at first because why wouldn't I want my ds to be financially secure? But then I realized that not only he but also we wouldn't feel at home with them. All our machatonim are more or less in the same bracket as we are, some maybe a bit more prosperous, some a bit less, but the same ballpark. I don't have to be embarrassed that my purse is older than my son, I buy generic facial tissue, and our name has never appeared on a plaque in the shul.

Another reason not to look for money is that there's always a string attached even if it's made with invisible thread. There's no such thing as a free lunch. When someone gives you money, you owe them something in return. They have power and influence over you whether you realize it or not.

When checking references I ask if the parents are in a position to support, because I'd be happier if the answer were yes. Not that I want the kids to need it, but there's a sense of security if the answer is yes. Usually the answer is no. That's ok, I just want to know where they stand. If the answer is no then I'm not so sanguine about a girl who's just starting school. If she's working at a decent job, not ten hours a week as a sub assistant morah in a cheder preschool, then fine.

Still I leave the decision up to my dss. If they're ok knowing thay a girl whose parents have no money has two or three years of schooling ahead and won't be making a living till afterwards, so be it. If they have to pinch pennies, so be it. My dss know how to be frugal and if they weren't, it' would be high time they learned.

So to answer OPs cynical allegation, I can state definitively that yes, in fact there are people who aren't looking for money. We can't possibly be the only ones.

I think my dss are totally ignorant of their value on the shidduchim market. This may be because all their lives I told them that their sole assets are brains and character, because money, prestige and yichus we don't have.
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shatzileh




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 14 2017, 11:59 am
I may be mistaken, but I think in shidduchim there's a distinction between "helping to support" and "looking for money." The latter typically represents someone who thinks they're a commodity and deserves to marry rich and live a moderate to lavish lifestyle. The former just recognizes the necessity of money for a married couple, and wouldn't care whether the help comes from the wife earning money or the parents chipping in.
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amother
Copper


 

Post Tue, Mar 14 2017, 12:05 pm
shatzileh wrote:
I may be mistaken, but I think in shidduchim there's a distinction between "helping to support" and "looking for money." The latter typically represents someone who thinks they're a commodity and deserves to marry rich and live a moderate to lavish lifestyle. The former just recognizes the necessity of money for a married couple, and wouldn't care whether the help comes from the wife earning money or the parents chipping in.


This.
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simcha2




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 14 2017, 12:37 pm
amother wrote:
I can speak only from the viewpoint of the mother of my sons. Dh and I make a modest living and live a modest lifestyle, within our means. Our sons know that they wouldn't feel comfortable marrying into a family with a fancy lifestyle. they could maybe handle marrying into a family that had what you might call hidden money, in other words, they have savings and investments against a rainy day but live fairly frugally.

Obviously, bills have to be paid, and we're not in a position to support, and so they want girls who have some sort of marketable skill and can make a living. this doesnt mean that theyre looking for "money". They can't afford to be paupers , though. As long as the bills can be paid, that's enough for them. They're not looking for doctors lawyers and Wall Street types.

One of my sons was read a girl from a moderately prominent family, not a Reichman or a Tisch but people who are quite comfortable and well known in their OOT community. Ds said immediately not shayach. I was disappointed at first because why wouldn't I want my ds to be financially secure? But then I realized that not only he but also we wouldn't feel at home with them. All our machatonim are more or less in the same bracket as we are, some maybe a bit more prosperous, some a bit less, but the same ballpark. I don't have to be embarrassed that my purse is older than my son, I buy generic facial tissue, and our name has never appeared on a plaque in the shul.

Another reason not to look for money is that there's always a string attached even if it's made with invisible thread. There's no such thing as a free lunch. When someone gives you money, you owe them something in return. They have power and influence over you whether you realize it or not.

When checking references I ask if the parents are in a position to support, because I'd be happier if the answer were yes. Not that I want the kids to need it, but there's a sense of security if the answer is yes. Usually the answer is no. That's ok, I just want to know where they stand. If the answer is no then I'm not so sanguine about a girl who's just starting school. If she's working at a decent job, not ten hours a week as a sub assistant morah in a cheder preschool, then fine.

Still I leave the decision up to my dss. If they're ok knowing thay a girl whose parents have no money has two or three years of schooling ahead and won't be making a living till afterwards, so be it. If they have to pinch pennies, so be it. My dss know how to be frugal and if they weren't, it' would be high time they learned.

So to answer OPs cynical allegation, I can state definitively that yes, in fact there are people who aren't looking for money. We can't possibly be the only ones.

I think my dss are totally ignorant of their value on the shidduchim market. This may be because all their lives I told them that their sole assets are brains and character, because money, prestige and yichus we don't have.


This is all very admirable. But, why don't they think that it may be their job to support a wife, not the other way around? That is what is described in the kesubah.

Learning Torah is paramount, but there is a cost, and I can't work out why none of the cost is on the boy and all on the girl.
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amother
Cerise


 

Post Tue, Mar 14 2017, 12:52 pm
The kollel system revolves around money. It only works for people ready to rough it out and live poorly or move out of
Town. If not even if a couple survives on the wifes income- how will they have 100k to buy a house within 5-10
Years?
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amother
Lavender


 

Post Tue, Mar 14 2017, 1:03 pm
shatzileh wrote:
I may be mistaken, but I think in shidduchim there's a distinction between "helping to support" and "looking for money." The latter typically represents someone who thinks they're a commodity and deserves to marry rich and live a moderate to lavish lifestyle. The former just recognizes the necessity of money for a married couple, and wouldn't care whether the help comes from the wife earning money or the parents chipping in.


I think "helping support" and looking for money are close cousins. I think almost all people flatly deny being in either group. This thread alone demonstrates this. Not one mother acknowledges to only looking for machitonim who can support. That being said if this thread goes 1000 pages long, nobody will ever admit to marrying money so they can enjoy a luxurious lifestyle. Perheps eventually a few will admit to wanting support. I see some people have responded this is unusual. I completely disagree. I think that MOST boys who are learning and want to continue learning at least a few years will only consider a girl who can support. Its unthinkable that his own parents should support. This is even true in the less yeshivish crowd. If a boy is in law/medical school and doesn't expect to earn money till his high 20's, he will expect support from his wife's family. I am in touch with several well known shadchanim in bklyn and this is absolutely standard.
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amother
Burlywood


 

Post Tue, Mar 14 2017, 1:12 pm
My mothers friend was asked by a shadchanit what type is she looking for?
She said someone who reuses pickle jars.
She said she doesnt need rich people because they lose their money what are they worth after.
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amother
Khaki


 

Post Tue, Mar 14 2017, 1:12 pm
I got married with a yr of grad school left. My parents and in laws supported. My parents paid the rent, my in laws gave 500 a month for food and other things. We saved whatever was extra and did not spend on any luxuries. Now I'm working. My in laws don't support but they do sponsor different things (takeout a few times a month, so biggish purchases like a baby bouncer or printer etc) and my parents are slowly decreasing the amount. They don't pay full rent anymore. I am fully aware I am lucky to have this. One small issue is that many of my husband's friends and their wives come from families of means. So my husband sometimes feels like we won't make it. I'm working and we'll see. My father is learning still...we're happy to do without.
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amother
Copper


 

Post Tue, Mar 14 2017, 1:16 pm
simcha2 wrote:
This is all very admirable. But, why don't they think that it may be their job to support a wife, not the other way around? That is what is described in the kesubah.

Learning Torah is paramount, but there is a cost, and I can't work out why none of the cost is on the boy and all on the girl.


I blame the yeshivas.and seminaries both I have always told my children of both genders that they must study something that will enable them to make a living, whether they go to college or Apex Technical School to become a widget mechanic. My mistake was allowing ds to continue in a RW yeshiva past hs. I've been tellling them their whole lives that Im ein kemach ein Torah and that the ketubah imposes the responsibility of supporting a family, and I also told them that dh and I have no intention of supporting our children once they marry.

Little did I know. I wish I knew what evil magic the yeshivos wield that enables them to nilify eighteen years of parental influence. Once my ds went away to yeshiva, he was swallowed up and lost to reason. Don't get me wrong, he's a wonderful human being and verbally acknowledges that if the time comes that his family can't make ends meet he'll go out and work. When I point out that he has zero skills and his ability to make more than a few dollars is slim to nonexistent, he sloughs me off with "Don't worry Hashem will provide." Because his yeshiva acknowledges a handful of alumni who later went to law school and are now big financial supporters of the yeshiva, he fondly imagines that he'll be able to do that too if need be.

I blame the seminaries for brainwashing young women to think that this moishe kapoyer system in which women take on the responsibility for both parnassah and managing the household is normal and desirable. If there weren't this enormous pool of starry eyed Rachel aishes Rabbi Akiva wannabes only too eager to put up with this nonsense, the young men would have no choice but to step up to the plate and learn how to earn their keep.

I'm not saying that men have to support their families singlehandedly. That's very difficult in today's economy. But I agree with you 100% that something stinks in the land of Denmark when able bodied young men assume that they have the right to be supported.
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amother
Olive


 

Post Tue, Mar 14 2017, 1:28 pm
One of my friends who got support got to live in Israel for 2 years. When she moved to Lakewood, she still got supported as her dh continued to learn. They have everything paid for them and the result is no money management skills. They spend all the money gifts they recieved for their wedding. I'll never understand why they didn't choose to save it. Even extras were paid for! (Expensive clothing, plain tickets, eating out etc.) Hes 30 with no work experience or skill. They have a few children. What happens if their parents lose their money? They wouldn't be able to cover their rent, let alone the lifestyle they have gotten used to.
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sky




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 14 2017, 3:00 pm
L K wrote:
I don't get something though. Even if one is willing to "do without", the basic necessities still add up to a fortune. Even if one is on programs and gets healthcare and food paid for and never buys clothing (which I don't think is normal or healthy when kids are past certain age), there are still tuitions, kids shoes, gas and car expenses, rent after all. That adds up to a ton.
Add to this the fact that women bear kids.
I don't get it how they can do it.


Its similar to having one parent SAHM. There is childcare - but many are able to spend very little on babysitting and the DH pitches in a lot during bein hasedarim to keep the expenses to a minimum.

My friends and family (almost all of DH's siblings) who are seriously in kollel 10+ years - the girls are from very simple homes - and the husbands help a ton - take the kids to playgroup in the morning, pick up bein hasedarim, help take care of the home and childcare.

I was talking to a boy in shidduchim (now married) and he specifically wanted a girl from a "simple" home because he saw his friends who married money went to work soon after marriage or were busy with money even while learning.

I'm not denying people look for money - its very common - but its a certain type that doesn't look for money.
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amother
Brown


 

Post Tue, Mar 14 2017, 10:01 pm
amother wrote:
This is even true in the less yeshivish crowd. If a boy is in law/medical school and doesn't expect to earn money till his high 20's, he will expect support from his wife's family. I am in touch with several well known shadchanim in bklyn and this is absolutely standard.


It's "absolutely standard" just like it's "absolutely standard" for kollel guys to get supported. It is absolutely not. Some choose to live simply. Or the boys parents help out (with tuition for example). I'm speaking for myself and for some of his friends.
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allthingsblue




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 14 2017, 10:03 pm
amother wrote:
It's "absolutely standard" just like it's "absolutely standard" for kollel guys to get supported. It is absolutely not. Some choose to live simply. Or the boys parents help out (with tuition for example). I'm speaking for myself and for some of his friends.


The male law/med students I know either marry working girls and live simply or their parents help support.
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L K




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 14 2017, 10:16 pm
sky wrote:
Its similar to having one parent SAHM. There is childcare - but many are able to spend very little on babysitting and the DH pitches in a lot during bein hasedarim to keep the expenses to a minimum.
y.


100%. Which is why the sahm families I know are only the ones where husbands run businesses, otherwise making a salary that will be sufficient to support a frum family is super hard. I can hardly imagine what a woman must do in order to make a salary that will pay for 6+ tuitions, clothing, shoes, gifts to teachers, mishloach manos etc.
Don't really know as many women in business.
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amother
Navy


 

Post Tue, Mar 14 2017, 10:38 pm
amother wrote:

If someone says they are looking for money it really means in nice words that they don't want the shiduch. Because if I redt them to a rosh hayeshivas daughter with no money they would grab it.


I don't think that is accurate, sorry to say.
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amother
Firebrick


 

Post Tue, Mar 14 2017, 10:53 pm
I didn't read the whole thread. I do think it's a horrible system though. You don't marry for money and shidduchim should not have anything to do with what side can pay more. That being said. I got married to a working boy and we struggled in the beginning. We were not supported monetarily at all. My brother for married last year and he is learning. Both sides are supporting. They live in israel a very nice lifestyle and are moving back now...not a year after marriage and both sides are buying them a house. I feel.it's not nice but it's not my business at all. Bh I am on my 2nd home and I did it myself. My brother is starting school and my sister in law is in school now. They will be supported at least the next 3 years.
I feel that it's not a parents responsibility to support. U r old enough to get married. U should be old enough to Make some money and live within your means.
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allthingsblue




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 14 2017, 11:25 pm
L K wrote:
100%. Which is why the sahm families I know are only the ones where husbands run businesses, otherwise making a salary that will be sufficient to support a frum family is super hard. I can hardly imagine what a woman must do in order to make a salary that will pay for 6+ tuitions, clothing, shoes, gifts to teachers, mishloach manos etc.
Don't really know as many women in business.


I think bY that time, the majority of men have gone out to work (even if it's klei kodesh).
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amother
Brown


 

Post Wed, Mar 15 2017, 8:54 am
allthingsblue wrote:
The male law/med students I know either marry working girls and live simply or their parents help support.


I agree with you. That's my point. The poster I was quoting said:
Quote:
If a boy is in law/medical school and doesn't expect to earn money till his high 20's, he will expect support from his wife's family.


The key word is OR.
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simcha2




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Mar 15 2017, 9:39 am
allthingsblue wrote:
The male law/med students I know either marry working girls and live simply or their parents help support.


All the law and med students I know (including when dh was at that stage) took out loans to cover costs which they (and us) will be paying back for years to come.
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amother
Peach


 

Post Wed, Mar 15 2017, 9:48 am
Maybe it's me, but what is the benefit of this lifestyle of having so many men learn fulltime? This was not typical a few generations ago unless you were an amazing scholar. Why can't a man get a job to help support his family and then learn on the side afterwards? I think learning is great, but the right thing is to take care of your family first. After you are doing what you need to do to support your family, then use your additional time to learn.

My oldest child is a boy. I've been teaching him since day one the importance of getting a job when he grows up. He will not be getting any guaranteed financial support from me after he moves out. I can't afford it. Both my husband and I work fulltime, middle class white collar jobs. We'll never be rich, but B"H we make ends meet. We own our own home, (only because we have a 2nd mortgage, interest free from my folks) although it's small. we are not on any government programs. We live a simple frugal lifestyle and never travel.

Both my husband & I are college educated. We're going to encourage our son to get a college education too. Or at least go to a trade school or do something to gain markable skills, depending on what he's interested in doing when he grows up. My son will have to support himself and when he's ready to get married, he'll need to be responsible and support his family.
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