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Forum -> Yom Tov / Holidays -> Pesach
Do you update your minhagim based on practicality?
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moonstone




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 21 2017, 2:41 am
essie14 wrote:
Haha. I JUST told my kids the brisket joke. Even my holocaust survivor grandmother says "of course we didn't eat XYZ on pesach, we never had those things all year round!"
We eat everything on pesach that says kosher for pesach Smile
Not eating something that was preserved in chametz alcohol is not a minhag. It was called "not eating chametz". Nowadays if garlic has no chance of being chametz, it's not breaking a minhag to eat it.


Yeah, we also eat anything and everything labeled KLP. No minhagim, no chumras, no peeling, no boiling, etc. And this thread is the first I've heard of not using utensils that fell on the floor! I'd just give it a wipe on my pants. LOL

When my father was a kid, they had almost no dairy on pesach because it just wasn't available. He certainly didn't keep that "minhag" as he grew up, and I can't imagine pesach without matzo with butter or cream cheese!
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 21 2017, 4:01 am
amother wrote:
Val titosh toras imecha-which means minhagim. You do whatever your husband tells you.
If we laugh or question our mesorah then we may as well not keep anything.
This discussion is for eighth graders.
My mother comes from a family that bruks they dunk the matzah into the soup -heaven! She married a chasidish guy that has seperate tables for matzah and regular food. We don't mish or bruk.
Keeping these chumros it doesn't restrict us, it makes us malachim-royal.

Um, that quote means "Follow the teachings of your MOTHER." It doesn't say anything about your husband!
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chanchy123




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 21 2017, 4:12 am
amother wrote:
I always tell my kids that my grandparents didn't eat kiwis and mangoes on Pesach. That's because they never ate tropical fruit in their lives. So what?

A minhag is something that grows out of observing halacha. Not eating something that wasn't available to you just isn't in that category. I'm not changing my grandparents' minhag by eating a mango. I would be changing their minhag if I ate kitniyos.

Cue the jokes about the woman who cuts the end off her brisket and the men who all bow as they walk past a certain part of the shul.


That reminds me of a story my DH tells every year on Pesach. A rebbi came to America where he met some of his Chassidim who were already established there. Before Pesach the chassidim came to the rebbi and asked him if bananas where kosher for Pesach. The rebbi said vos iz das bananas (or however you say it in Yiddish)? We never ate bananas on Pesach in the old country so we are not going to eat them here either. Since then, this chassidus were very makpid to not eat bananas on Pesach, and every item they gave a hechsher said no chashash of bananas.
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 21 2017, 4:14 am
greenfire wrote:
lol ~ my mother says the same thing ... but guess what? that is all they had ... gotta wonder about this kitniyus ... maybe more of us played our sephardi card

then again I can bake non-gebrocht passover sponge cake ... what more to life is there

[I bet if I searched mama's house we'd find one of those passover recipe books from planters ... there surely are maxwell house haggadas]


R 'Moshe Feistein z"l famously contended that peanuts were not kitniyot. Indeed, for many decades, mainstream observant Jews in the US used to eat peanuts and peanut products on Pesach without hesitation.
What happened was that at some point during the late sixties -early seventies of the last century, the kashrut supervision industry decided to comply with the extra stringent minority opinon that held that peanuts were kitniyot. They stopped authorizing products that included peanuts or peanut oil. That's when US Ashkenazic Jewry, as a community, stopped consuming peanuts on Pesach.
A similar thing happened here in Israel with cottonseed oil about 25 years ago. The industry decided to discontinue using this previously ubiquitously used oil on Pesach for financial reasons, in keeping with the Eida Haredit's psak that it was to be regarded as kitniyot. In recent years cottonseed oil has begun to creep back into the local scene, mostly in imports certified as KLP in the US where this is not an issue.
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chanchy123




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 21 2017, 4:24 am
moonstone wrote:


When my father was a kid, they had almost no dairy on pesach because it just wasn't available. He certainly didn't keep that "minhag" as he grew up, and I can't imagine pesach without matzo with butter or cream cheese!


My mother also told me that they never had any dairy on Pesach because they didn't have any available. She said that almost everything would be made with shmaltz as oil. Certainly our family did not continue to avoid dairy on Pesach.

I remember how when I was a young child (this story must have happened close to thirty years ago), my aunt came for seder and brought an assortment of nuts as a hostess gift. The assortment included peanuts. I remember a debate with my parents and my aunt whether we eat peanuts on Pesach, I seem to remember my father saying how in the "old country" (the US) they did eat peanuts on Pesach, but in Israel they are considered kitniyot. The nuts were placed on top of the fridge until after Pesach.
After reading this thread I think that maybe my aunt remembered using peanut oil on Pesach from their childhood in the US. I'm going to have to ask my parents. Anyhow, my family has always used soy oil on Pesach, not to mention canola oil.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 21 2017, 7:55 am
"not eating because it wasn't there" is not the same as not eating because it was forbidden.

Certainly on Pessah it's not time to experiment.
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cbg




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 21 2017, 8:09 am
Who doesn't eat potatoes?

Growing up, my mom didn't eat potatoes, or any tubers, on Pesach,
For the mere fact that it was a starch and you can make cake from starch.
Not in the US.

When they came to the US, they started eating potatoes.

I still remover the first time my mom bought a Kosher LePesach cake and my grandfather screaming that there was chametz in the house. My grandfather was a very docile man.
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 21 2017, 8:23 am
My Sefardic grandmother. No potatoes until she married Polish and switched the minhagim.
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cbg




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 21 2017, 8:36 am
Ruchel wrote:
My Sefardic grandmother. No potatoes until she married Polish and switched the minhagim.


That's so funny, my mom also Sephardic, originally from Turkey,born in Cuba.
We do eat plantains, though.
BTW, we also don't eat kitniyot.
I read somewhere that the reason some Turkish Jews don't eat kitniyot is because the Rabbis banned it for fear that the ppl in that town would not check it properly.
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 21 2017, 9:39 am
etky wrote:
R 'Moshe Feistein z"l famously contended that peanuts were not kitniyot. Indeed, for many decades, mainstream observant Jews in the US used to eat peanuts and peanut products on Pesach without hesitation.
What happened was that at some point during the late sixties -early seventies of the last century, the kashrut supervision industry decided to comply with the extra stringent minority opinon that held that peanuts were kitniyot. They stopped authorizing products that included peanuts or peanut oil. That's when US Ashkenazic Jewry, as a community, stopped consuming peanuts on Pesach.
A similar thing happened here in Israel with cottonseed oil about 25 years ago. The industry decided to discontinue using this previously ubiquitously used oil on Pesach for financial reasons, in keeping with the Eida Haredit's psak that it was to be regarded as kitniyot. In recent years cottonseed oil has begun to creep back into the local scene, mostly in imports certified as KLP in the US where this is not an issue.


Interesting.

But I don't recall peanut butter or other peanuts, just peanut oil I thought it related to using a derivative of the kitniyot (oil) as opposed to kitniyot itself.

Or that it was allowed so long as Planters continued to bribe the kosher community with its cookbook. Once they stopped, the rabbis turned on them. All I can say is, Maxwell House better keep printing that Hagaddah; I need my coffee.

Hidden: 

For the humor-impaired, the last paragraph is a joke.
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amother
Burgundy


 

Post Tue, Mar 21 2017, 9:55 am
As best I know, the divide over peanuts goes back a while. You could say that Rav Moshe lost that battle.

There are at least 2 issues​ here:

1. As SixOfWands and Etky said, there's disagreement about whether the derivative of kitniyos must be considered kitniyos. This grows out of the question of whether kitniyos are forbidden because they may have been mixed with chametz at some point (in which case derivatives are forbidden) or because they could be mistaken for chametz, in which case the derivative would be allowed.

2. Does the gezera forbid foods which were not​ included in the original ban? There were no Jews living in the Americas a thousand years ago, when the minhag began. Thus, peanuts, corn and soybeans​ (never mind​ their derivatives) were not banned. It would be 500 years before Jews laid eyes on these foods. Perhaps they should be allowed because we don't have the authority to issue a ban.

Food for thought .
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water_bear88




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 21 2017, 10:13 am
amother wrote:
As best I know, the divide over peanuts goes back a while. You could say that Rav Moshe lost that battle.

There are at least 2 issues​ here:

1. As SixOfWands and Etky said, there's disagreement about whether the derivative of kitniyos must be considered kitniyos. This grows out of the question of whether kitniyos are forbidden because they may have been mixed with chametz at some point (in which case derivatives are forbidden) or because they could be mistaken for chametz, in which case the derivative would be allowed.

2. Does the gezera forbid foods which were not​ included in the original ban? There were no Jews living in the Americas a thousand years ago, when the minhag began. Thus, peanuts, corn and soybeans​ (never mind​ their derivatives) were not banned. It would be 500 years before Jews laid eyes on these foods. Perhaps they should be allowed because we don't have the authority to issue a ban.

Food for thought .


So on the matter of derivatives, I know several learned Israelis who hold that kitniyot oil is allowed. Even if a wheat grain did get mixed into the soy beans before pressing, it would be batel beshishim if it happened before Pesach. And if it's a worry about confusion of the product itself, none of the five grains can be turned into oil, so there's no grounds for confusion, unlike flour which could be made from e.g. chickpeas or corn.
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Marion




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 21 2017, 11:31 am
The only one I'm changing is the oil. I'm allergic to nuts so can't use nut oil and palm is prohibitively expensive. I use olive oil for frying but it just doesn't work for baking (and also expensive). Reasonably priced alternatives for baking are canola (rapeseed), soy, and sunflower. In previous years I was told I can use sunflower but no one else I know holds that way, so they can't eat what I make. I am able to ask a different rav this year (separated, no longer obligated to "DH's" rav) who said that canola is fine, even for those who don't eat kitniyot. So this year yes, I'm changing the oil minhag. Otherwise, still no kitniyot.
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water_bear88




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 21 2017, 11:41 am
Marion wrote:
The only one I'm changing is the oil. I'm allergic to nuts so can't use nut oil and palm is prohibitively expensive. I use olive oil for frying but it just doesn't work for baking (and also expensive). Reasonably priced alternatives for baking are canola (rapeseed), soy, and sunflower. In previous years I was told I can use sunflower but no one else I know holds that way, so they can't eat what I make. I am able to ask a different rav this year (separated, no longer obligated to "DH's" rav) who said that canola is fine, even for those who don't eat kitniyot. So this year yes, I'm changing the oil minhag. Otherwise, still no kitniyot.


We use canola though not other oils. I was told there's only oil, as most of the plant is poisonous, and it's not been on the market long enough to have an established minhag avot regarding using it or not.
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greenfire




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 21 2017, 1:40 pm
there are those who don't eat any dairy on pesach ... others who will only eat what they purchased before pesach - why ? because the cows are fed grains

but I once heard someone telling the local butcher that they don't eat tongue on pesach because the cow eats grains ...

this should ban der gantze geshikte cow - if you ask me
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amother
Coffee


 

Post Tue, Mar 21 2017, 1:43 pm
greenfire wrote:
there are those who don't eat any dairy on pesach ... others who will only eat what they purchased before pesach - why ? because the cows are fed grains

but I once heard someone telling the local butcher that they don't eat tongue on pesach because the cow eats grains ...

this should ban der gantze geshikte cow - if you ask me

Not sure but think because he could've still had chometz in his mouth?


Last edited by amother on Mon, Jun 11 2018, 12:56 am; edited 1 time in total
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 21 2017, 2:08 pm
water_bear88 wrote:
We use canola though not other oils. I was told there's only oil, as most of the plant is poisonous, and it's not been on the market long enough to have an established minhag avot regarding using it or not.


So, we've been mulling this for a number of years. We do not eat kitniyot or consume "mey kitniyot" like soy and sunflower oils. We use olive oil and the nut oil which is 5 times the price of canola oil. Between baking, salad dressings and cooking, I go through several bottles of nut oil each chag. Many MO ashkenazi poskim in Israel hold that canola is not kitniyot and thus its oil is permitted if labeled as KLP with a Sefardi hechsher. The only reason we still refrain from using the canola oil is that I want anyone that I invite for a meal to feel comfortable eating in my home. Personally, we have no problem eating the food at friends' homes who cook with canola oil but not everyone feels that way. I also have no problem buying ready to eat products like chocolate, ice cream and wafers that state that they contain 'liftit' -meaning lecithin derived from canola.
I don't know why I still have such reluctance about making the switch. It's not as if I'm jetissoning an age-old minhag. After all, my grandparents in the US cooked with peanut oil and before that, in the shtetl, they probably just used shmaltz. Certainly no one knew from hazelnut and walnut oil back then.
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water_bear88




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 21 2017, 2:17 pm
etky wrote:
So, we've been mulling this for a number of years. We do not eat kitniyot or consume "mey kitniyot" like soy and sunflower oils. We use olive oil and the nut oil which is 5 times the price of canola oil. Between baking, salad dressings and cooking, I go through several bottles of nut oil each chag. Many MO ashkenazi poskim in Israel hold that canola is not kitniyot and thus its oil is permitted if labeled as KLP with a Sefardi hechsher. The only reason we still refrain from using the canola oil is that I want anyone that I invite for a meal to feel comfortable eating in my home. Personally, we have no problem eating the food at friends' homes who cook with canola oil but not everyone feels that way. I also have no problem buying ready to eat products like chocolate, ice cream and wafers that state that they contain 'liftit' -meaning lecithin derived from canola.
I don't know why I still have such reluctance about making the switch. It's not as if I'm jetissoning an age-old minhag. After all, my grandparents in the US cooked with peanut oil and before that, in the shtetl, they probably just used shmaltz. Certainly no one knew from hazelnut and walnut oil back then.


Right- I didn't mean we don't use other oils, as we use olive oil year-round for salad and some cooking. I definitely ask before guests come if they eat canola. Otherwise there's coconut oil or butter for baking.
You're sure the liftit is all canola on Pesach? We've avoided so many foods just because of that, thinking it was from soy!
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 21 2017, 2:28 pm
water_bear88 wrote:
Right- I didn't mean we don't use other oils, as we use olive oil year-round for salad and some cooking. I definitely ask before guests come if they eat canola. Otherwise there's coconut oil or butter for baking.
You're sure the liftit is all canola on Pesach? We've avoided so many foods just because of that, thinking it was from soy!


I can't guarantee it. You have to read the ingredients carefully. Generally the products that I'm referring to are labelled כשר לפסח - לאוכלי לפתית . Sometimes a product will also state that it contains lecithin from soy during the year and from canola for Pesach.
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Mar 21 2017, 2:33 pm
BTW you can always call the company and ask.
We've done that on several occasions. Usually they are more than happy to provide the necessary information.
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