Do you update your minhagim based on practicality?

Chayalle

Wed, Mar 22 2017, 10:25 am

zohar wrote:

That's a different question. You seem to be demeaning the entire practice, not questioning if under some circumstances, it would be better to become more lenient. That actually is probably going back to the original question if the op. I would only abandon a minhag or chumra practiced by my family if it was affecting shalom bayis (even among extended family) or under extenuating circumstances such as someone being ill and not having the time or strength to make things from scratch.

Yes and I'm proud to do so. I thought the kashering was like what on earth? I asked DH. And I posted what he said.

It's not a leniency - because that seems to imply that it's not a l'chatchillah. But there's no leniency involved in simply washing off the kli that fell to the floor. Because there's no Halachic requirement to Kasher it in the first place.

If the wife is only practicing this in front of her husband....then it's unfair that she should live with the slightest guilt for not following this minhag, which is obviously too hard for her.

It's too farfetched, and should not be practiced in the first place.

Last edited by Chayalle on Wed, Mar 22 2017, 1:46 pm; edited 2 times in total

amother

Oak

Wed, Mar 22 2017, 10:27 am

Chayalle wrote:

Yes and I'm proud to do so. I thought the kashering was like what on earth? I asked DH, who has served the Bais Horaah in lakewood in that capacity in the past. And I posted what he wrote.

It's not a leniency - because that seems to imply that it's not a l'chatchillah. But there's no leniency involved in simply washing off the kli that fell to the floor. Because there's no Halachic requirement to Kasher it in the first place.

If the wife is only practicing this in front of her husband....then it's unfair that she should live with the slightest guilt for not following this minhag, which is obviously too hard for her.

It's too farfetched, and should not be practiced in the first place.

She doesn't live with any guilt LOL. It's like a game. DF freaks out and we laugh behind his back. He'd have a heart attack if he knew we just wash the spoon. So why argue about it and make him feel like he's not keeping Pesach properly?

Chayalle

Wed, Mar 22 2017, 10:29 am

amother wrote:

See that's the sad part...that he would feel he's not keeping Pesach properly, for a minhag/chumrah that has no basis in Halacha.

amother

Rose

Wed, Mar 22 2017, 10:32 am

amother wrote:

I object to this.

Because DH found no halachic basis gives him the right to call it shtus? Did he research it in the places where this chumra is found to know what it's based on? This is very much normal in my community. (either it must be kashered or you don't use it for a whole year)

And of course it has to do with chometz. We only put down pesach'dig utensils on pesach'dig surfaces, whether kashered or lined. The floor is neither. With people walking on the floor constantly and who knows what on the soles of their shoes, with matza crumbs on the floor becoming gebrokted, the floor is a downright hotbed of shailos for something that will go directly in your mouth.

WASHING it is required. KASHERING it is not. And not using something for a year doesn't kasher it. That's a very common misconception but a misconception nevertheless.

water_bear88

Wed, Mar 22 2017, 10:34 am

amother wrote:

I really wouldn't count on it not affecting kids. Encouraging kids to make fun of their other parent is terrible parenting.

amother

Oak

Wed, Mar 22 2017, 10:36 am

amother wrote:

WASHING it is required. KASHERING it is not. And not using something for a year doesn't kasher it. That's a very common misconception but a misconception nevertheless.

The way my father holds is that it either needs to be kashered to be continued to use on pesach or not used for a year. The reasoning is that just like we use our pesach keilim for gebrokts on acharon shel pesach but we can them use them the next year even if we are makpid not to brok, the same thing applies to those fallen utensils. How come those things don't need to be kashered? It's because they didn't actually become chometz'dig but either chashash of chometz or gebrokts. So the fallen utensils get the same treatment as pesach'dig dishes that are used for gebrokts.

amother

Oak

Wed, Mar 22 2017, 10:37 am

water_bear88 wrote:

I really wouldn't count on it not affecting kids. Encouraging kids to make fun of their other parent is terrible parenting.

Again, it's all in how you do it.

My DH was in on the game and he doesn't hold to this chumra. So in that sense I think it was great parenting!

Chayalle

Wed, Mar 22 2017, 10:39 am

amother wrote:

WASHING it is required. KASHERING it is not. And not using something for a year doesn't kasher it. That's a very common misconception but a misconception nevertheless.

About the not using it for a year, I'm assuming this is because of gebrokts. DH and I don't "brok" either, except the last day of Pesach. We use our regular dishes then, and I remember once asking my father about it and he said that the concept is that after a year, by the next Pesach the dishes are no longer considered "gebrokts".

If it was a matter of the dishes being chametz, a year wouldn't do it and it would have to be kashered. And as I've already explained, that would only be if it touched hot chometz. So no kashering necessary.

And in terms of it having become gebrokts, that's pretty farfetched too....as I've already posted, it would have to have touched something gebrokts for 18 minutes...so washing it right away would take care of that.

amother

Oak

Wed, Mar 22 2017, 10:43 am

Chayalle wrote:

And in terms of it having become gebrokts, that's pretty farfetched too....as I've already posted, it would have to have touched something gebrokts for 18 minutes...so washing it right away would take care of that.

Not true. your neglecting to take into account the time it took to bake the matza. Gebrokts isn't 18 minutes from matza to water. It's 18 minutes from flour to water. So if it took 17 minutes to make the matza, it'll take only 1 minute to become gebrokts.

water_bear88

Wed, Mar 22 2017, 10:45 am

amother wrote:

Sorry, I thought you meant DH. I still think it's bad parenting, if not terrible, to make fun of their grandparent. You can tell your kids that there's Saba's sanity and there's Ima's sanity and it's possible to preserve both respectfully. You can wash the spoon off discreetly without making fun of the practice.

Chayalle

Wed, Mar 22 2017, 10:48 am

amother wrote:

gotta ask DH about that. I remember him saying it's not the matzah, but rather flour that could be left on the matzah, that combined with water, can become gebrokts.

amother

Oak

Wed, Mar 22 2017, 10:51 am

water_bear88 wrote:

I was describing what goes on in my parents and in-laws home. Grandchildren are not part of the picture here.
We wash off the spoon but then kids notice the disparity b/w what father says (put it aside for achron shel pesach) and mother does (washes it and puts it back in drawer with the rest), so we explain it. another poster said that it's not ok for kids to see you not respecting their father's minhag to which I responded that it's ok because they learn how to deal with it.

SixOfWands

Wed, Mar 22 2017, 11:00 am

Chayalle wrote:

gotta ask DH about that. I remember him saying it's not the matzah, but rather flour that could be left on the matzah, that combined with water, can become gebrokts.

Gebrokts isn't a halachic problem, its a chumrah.

The problem is that if there were flour left on the matzo (and there's not if its commercially produced), it could become chametz if exposed to water for more than 18 minutes. Which is the reasoning behind the chumrah -- if there were flour left on the matzo, wetting it could potentially create chametz.

So, IOW, matzo + water = gebrokts = halachically OK, but chumrah of some not to eat

Hypothetical flour + water + more than 18 minutes = chametz

But why kasher for gebrokts? You may have a chumrah not to eat it, but you still acknowledge that there's no halacha against it. Some people might have a chumrah not to eat bananas on Pesach, but no one is going to kasher their dishes if they touch banana. At least I hope they won't.

Chayalle

Wed, Mar 22 2017, 11:00 am

This is reminding me of a story I think I heard in the name of the Belzer Rebbe. A Chassid came to him and complained that his wife does not want to follow certain chumrahs of his, including not buying any ready products (to make her life easier). The Rebbe asked him if he makes his own matzos and wine, and he said he does not - he buys them from the matza bakery and the winery.

So the Rebbe said - if it were YOUR job to do the cooking and baking, you would also want some ready products. Your job is to get the matza and wine - so you buy those ready made - and then you want your wife to make everything from scratch.

Chayalle

Wed, Mar 22 2017, 11:02 am

SixOfWands wrote:

Precisely. Well said.

amother

Orange

Wed, Mar 22 2017, 11:08 am

mfb wrote:

I think brown sugar is more processed than regular sugar, and the minhag for those that don't use most things comes from not using processed foods, since the more processing the more chance chometz got in.

Some brown sugar is mixed with molasses , organic light brown sugar is unprocessed

water_bear88

Wed, Mar 22 2017, 11:11 am

amother wrote:

The bolded is what I found objectionable in your post. Not the fact that you wash off the spoon.

SixOfWands

Wed, Mar 22 2017, 11:14 am

amother wrote:

Some brown sugar is mixed with molasses , organic light brown sugar is unprocessed

Brown sugar is always white sugar and molasses.

All sugar is processed. Presumably, you could buy sugarcane and do it yourself, but I've never heard of anyone doing it. Found this cool graphic