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-> Yom Tov / Holidays
-> Pesach
Maya
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 Wed, Mar 22 2017, 6:35 pm
| Seas wrote: | I once heard a shiur about it; dropping a chumra isn't as simple as some might think. Usually it has the din of a neder, which at the very least would require hataras nedarim. Sometimes (IIRC when it's an inherited chumra), you can't even be mattir neder.
Before doing anything that has halachic implications, one should ask a rav. |
Darshanim say a lot of things which make no sense and should not be taken seriously, especially when it comes to minhagim and such, because their fears related to that issue blind them to anything else.
I was told of a shiur about mesorah in which the speaker made a claim that if hundreds of scholars pasken that something is assur, but one elderly woman claims that particular practice as a mesorah, the old lady wins and people must continue to do that even if against Halacha, because the strength that a mesorah carries is bar none. Now, any sane person can see how irrational this argument is, and it's a great lesson in how not to take all shuirim seriously.
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amother
Mustard
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Wed, Mar 22 2017, 6:39 pm
| Maya wrote: | Darshanim say a lot of things which make no sense and should not be taken seriously, especially when it comes to minhagim and such, because their fears related to that issue blind them to anything else.
I was told of a shiur about mesorah in which the speaker made a claim that if hundreds of scholars pasken that something is assur, but one elderly woman claims that particular practice as a mesorah, the old lady wins and people must continue to do that even if against Halacha, because the strength that a mesorah carries is bar none. Now, any sane person can see how irrational this argument is, and it's a great lesson in how not to take all shuirim seriously. |
No, it's a great lesson to know not to take third hand stories seriously. I heard about a shiur that someone heard about...
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yksraya
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Wed, Mar 22 2017, 6:40 pm
| amother wrote: | I love you ladies! and I'm with you too!
I'm simply saying what we do in my parents and inlaws home. THERE IS NO WAY my father or dfil are going to give up on this major area. You're not talking about 20-30 yr olds. You're talking about middle aged men who've set their minds that the way it was done in their fathers' home that's how it will be done in their home. (ppl tend to get like that pesach time).
Now the wife (my mother or mil) have options: they can continue arguing over this every pesach. she'll drop s/th, dh says put it aside and she says no I won't. what started out as not so difficult to follow with 4 kids, becomes harder as the marrieds move in with their spouses (who aren't always so careful) and their kids. so while they might have been ok with it to begin with, by now it's too much. so they argue. no use. argue again. no use.
OR she can do as he says and be resentful and go crazy e/ time something falls
OR, theyve learned how to make it work. and instead of trying to hide it from the kids, the kids learn an important lesson: way more important than the necessity of putting aside (or kashering) utensils that fell on teh floor. They learn that in a case of extreme chumra which is mentally taxing, you dont have to hold on to every detail so tightly. As long as you follow halacha. and no one will die from it.
this might be a bit off topic, but this is the same lesson they apply when they learn in chooson/kallah classes about missionary , lights off, under cover only. U learn to have sechel and as long as it's not assur, you can be flexible when it starts affecting your mental health or SB. |
No!!!! They will learn it's ok to go behind their dh's backs instead of healthy communication and comprimises.
It's sad that both, your parents and inlaws don't have healthy communication skills.
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Maya
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Wed, Mar 22 2017, 6:40 pm
| amother wrote: | | No, it's a great lesson to know not to take third hand stories seriously. I heard about a shiur that someone heard about... |
Perhaps you're right, although I have no reason to believe that it was fabricated on the spot.
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yksraya
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Wed, Mar 22 2017, 6:41 pm
| Maya wrote: | Darshanim say a lot of things which make no sense and should not be taken seriously, especially when it comes to minhagim and such, because their fears related to that issue blind them to anything else.
I was told of a shiur about mesorah in which the speaker made a claim that if hundreds of scholars pasken that something is assur, but one elderly woman claims that particular practice as a mesorah, the old lady wins and people must continue to do that even if against Halacha, because the strength that a mesorah carries is bar none. Now, any sane person can see how irrational this argument is, and it's a great lesson in how not to take all shuirim seriously. |
High school teacher style. We can start a whole thread on what shtus teachers preach that they practicaly made up themselves...
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Seas
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Wed, Mar 22 2017, 6:42 pm
| Maya wrote: | | Darshanim say a lot of things which make no sense and should not be taken seriously, |
It wasn't a 'darshan'. It was a dayan discussing specifically the halachic issues of chumras vis-a-vis neder.
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Maya
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Wed, Mar 22 2017, 6:44 pm
| Seas wrote: | | It wasn't a 'darshan'. It was a dayan discussing specifically the halachic issues of chumras vis-a-vis neder. |
My argument stands.
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zaq
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Wed, Mar 22 2017, 6:44 pm
| amother wrote: | Torah isn't masculine.
But whatever... | ah, but minhag is masculine. And minhag is the subject of the sentence. Jewish tradition is Halacha. Tradition, or minhag, is the thing that "is", and what he is, is halacha. If you reversed subject and object, you would say halacha HI minhag Yisrael because then the feminine Halacha would be the subject.
But actually according to my reference dictionary the expression is Minhag Yisrael --Torah. No he or who. Probably because of arguments like this one.
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Maya
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Wed, Mar 22 2017, 6:47 pm
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To those arguing over the Hi or the Hu part, it's pointless because that poster meant the same as you do, which is Hu but said in a Chassidish havarah.
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zaq
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Wed, Mar 22 2017, 6:56 pm
| Maya wrote: | | To those arguing over the Hi or the Hu part, it's pointless because that poster meant the same as you do, which is Hu but said in a Chassidish havarah. | but wouldn't it then be minhoog yisrooel? Busted!
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goodmorning
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Wed, Mar 22 2017, 6:59 pm
Actually, the original sources are a non-Chassidish "hi":
(Ramban Pesachim 7b): ומנהג ישראל תורה היא.
(Tosfos Menachos 20b) מנהג אבותינו תורה היא
(Rosh Rosh HaShana 4:14) ומנהג אבותינו תורה היא ואין לשנות
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amother
Mustard
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Wed, Mar 22 2017, 7:27 pm
| Maya wrote: | | To those arguing over the Hi or the Hu part, it's pointless because that poster meant the same as you do, which is Hu but said in a Chassidish havarah. |
Sorry sweetie, but it's hi as in hey, yud, alef. Not everything is about chassidus.
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amother
Oak
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Wed, Mar 22 2017, 11:04 pm
| yksraya wrote: | No!!!! They will learn it's ok to go behind their dh's backs instead of healthy communication and comprimises.
It's sad that both, your parents and inlaws don't have healthy communication skills. |
True dat. 
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zaq
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Thu, Mar 23 2017, 8:19 am
| goodmorning wrote: | Actually, the original sources are a non-Chassidish "hi":
(Ramban Pesachim 7b): ומנהג ישראל תורה היא.
(Tosfos Menachos 20b) מנהג אבותינו תורה היא
(Rosh Rosh HaShana 4:14) ומנהג אבותינו תורה היא ואין לשנות |
I'm impressed. I stand corrected.
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gp2.0
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Thu, Mar 23 2017, 8:47 am
| yksraya wrote: | | Why would someone live a lie like that? That's just not healthy and wrong on so many levels. It's not called lying, it's called decieving. And if he does know and chooses not to mention it, I give him credit for his strength to choose sholom bayis over his chumra. |
Maybe you've just never encountered inflexible people? Sometimes the healthiest way to deal with them is to pretend to indulge their whims.
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amother
Crimson
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Thu, Mar 23 2017, 9:12 am
This all speaks to the general issue of "can a tradition (minhag/chumrah) ever be wrong?"
The answer is surely yes, but those of chassidish persuasion feel that is blasphemous.
To such people, I say, if YOU were incorrect in a matter of halacha (say, a detail in hilchos borer) would you want YOUR children and grandchildren to make the same mistake in borer? "That's what bubby XYZ does so that's what we do in our house!"
Our esteemed halacha teacher in high school (Rabbi Matis Blum) spoke about this often, and said he always wanted to write a book on mistaken practices that evolved into unquestioned minhagim. (Anyone know if he ever did this?)
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yksraya
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Thu, Mar 23 2017, 12:53 pm
| gp2.0 wrote: | | Maybe you've just never encountered inflexible people? Sometimes the healthiest way to deal with them is to pretend to indulge their whims. |
That's the easy way (till they find out, and chaos erupts) but not the healthy way...
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agreer
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Thu, Mar 23 2017, 1:37 pm
| amother wrote: | This all speaks to the general issue of "can a tradition (minhag/chumrah) ever be wrong?"
The answer is surely yes, but those of chassidish persuasion feel that is blasphemous.
To such people, I say, if YOU were incorrect in a matter of halacha (say, a detail in hilchos borer) would you want YOUR children and grandchildren to make the same mistake in borer? "That's what bubby XYZ does so that's what we do in our house!"
Our esteemed halacha teacher in high school (Rabbi Matis Blum) spoke about this often, and said he always wanted to write a book on mistaken practices that evolved into unquestioned minhagim. (Anyone know if he ever did this?) |
I would LOVE to read that book!
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dimyona
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Thu, Mar 23 2017, 4:02 pm
Btw, even when it goes against halachic logic, mesorah on its own does carry a strong weight in paskening. One prominent example of this is the community eruv. The loopholes involved in considering a string to be a valid gate requires many leniences and even violates a derabbanan or two, but since there is a tradition of centuries of using eruvs to carry within cities, it's something that continues to be done within the parameters of halacha (within some groups).
As much as we'd like to think that the shulchan aruch came down on har sinai, even a lot of codified halacha was simply based on practices of communities that were documented. It's not a very rigid process, which is why there are actual different sets of halacha for diffent Jewish communities. It's all mesorah.
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gp2.0
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Thu, Mar 23 2017, 4:41 pm
| yksraya wrote: | | That's the easy way (till they find out, and chaos erupts) but not the healthy way... |
Do you speak from experience? Because I (unfortunately) do speak from experience and it took a lot of trial and error and anguish from both sides before I came to my conclusion. You don't seem to understand that trying to communicate in a healthy way results in just as much chaos when dealing with inflexible people.
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