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Living off government programs
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amother
cornflower


 

Post Sun, Apr 02 2017, 2:43 pm
What is so bad about planing to live off the government programs so that you can stay in kollel?
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Zehava




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 02 2017, 2:47 pm
Uh oh. Can of worms
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elisheva25




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 02 2017, 3:10 pm
I think a thread like this is like starting world war 3 on imamaother .
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amother
Vermilion


 

Post Sun, Apr 02 2017, 3:12 pm
I'll bite. I don't think it's so bad per se. (duck for the tomatoes...)

The problem is that it's setting yourself up for long-term dependence. It's very hard to get off the programs once you're on them because there's no safety net. You are either eligible and get money, or you're not eligible and don't get. That jump is very terrifying and keeps most people stuck for life.
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amother
Denim


 

Post Sun, Apr 02 2017, 3:40 pm
I wonder if it is lying. Because dh chooses not to work and not looking for a job.
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turca




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 02 2017, 3:52 pm
amother wrote:
I wonder if it is lying. Because dh chooses not to work and not looking for a job.

Of course not!!!
It's all because of Torah and it's allowed!!! Observant Jews that live of the government only see nachat in their lives, not like goym that are in the same position!!
How dare you to think that from our holy ppl???
Rolling Eyes
( I'm not being serious)
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amother
Rose


 

Post Sun, Apr 02 2017, 4:04 pm
Programs are intended for people who cannot earn a living, or cannot earn enough, due to disability, or other life circumstances that would make it impossible (ie. mother who finds herself single with young kids who need full time care). The idea is that it is temporary assistance for those in hard times or long term assistance for those who cannot survive otherwise.

While learning full time is certainly a beautiful ideal, If your DH is able bodied or mentally capable enough to work, it is an abuse of the government programs to benefit from them. The personal life choice you are making is then at the expense of programs (and taxpayers money) which were not intended for you, which is kind of stealing. Just because you decide kill is a worthy reason to take, doesn't mean the programs are the right way to support that lifestyle, and so you should be looking for another means of support.

Yes you can argue that others who are able to work abuse the same system for other reasons, but two wrongs don't make a right.

If you both work as much as you physically can and are still not managing that is another story, but full time kollell is intentionally making a choice (even if for lofty reason) to give up earning an income.
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Cookie Monster




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 02 2017, 4:09 pm
Zehava wrote:
Uh oh. Can of worms


Just a can?
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amother
Burgundy


 

Post Sun, Apr 02 2017, 4:20 pm
amother wrote:
I wonder if it is lying. Because dh chooses not to work and not looking for a job.

No, it's not lying. There are a very few programs that actually have a work requirement, but most don't. If you qualify based on income, you qualify, regardless of whether your low income is due to bad luck or bad choices. It's definitely abuse of the system, and I personally don't think it's very ethical, but you're not lying or breaking any laws unless you're lying about your income.
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MagentaYenta




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 02 2017, 4:26 pm
amother wrote:
No, it's not lying. There are a very few programs that actually have a work requirement, but most don't. If you qualify based on income, you qualify, regardless of whether your low income is due to bad luck or bad choices. It's definitely abuse of the system, and I personally don't think it's very ethical, but you're not lying or breaking any laws unless you're lying about your income.


Some states do have work or school mandates when it comes to TANF, remember this is partially funded by states. Many states changed how they qualified beneficiaries during the years of welfare reform. And remember too, that the majority of people who receive benefits are honest working folks who declare their incomes, but just don't earn enough to make it on their own.
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 02 2017, 5:57 pm
amother wrote:
No, it's not lying. There are a very few programs that actually have a work requirement, but most don't. If you qualify based on income, you qualify, regardless of whether your low income is due to bad luck or bad choices. It's definitely abuse of the system, and I personally don't think it's very ethical, but you're not lying or breaking any laws unless you're lying about your income.


Yup, but almost everyone lies about their income. They don't count all their income like family help or stipend. They do based on the justification that tuitions, kosher food, rent, kosher life style is more expensive.

I wonder what the general public would say if Muslims were doing this to study the koran and claimed Burkinis and hallal food were more expensive, so they didn't have to follow the rules. And if so many of them claimed one program like Section 8 that those unaffiliated with the religion couldn't qualify.
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sky




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 02 2017, 6:03 pm
I think if you are 100% honest about all income - cash, gifts, etc and play no games or tricks and it is allowed by law then it is legal and allowed.
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amother
Floralwhite


 

Post Sun, Apr 02 2017, 6:09 pm
sky wrote:
I think if you are 100% honest about all income - cash, gifts, etc and play no games or tricks and it is allowed by law then it is legal and allowed.



Even if it's allowed, it certainly is not in the spirit of the law for able bodied men to voluntarily choose not to work and then collect support from the government to survive.
To say that this isn't what programs were created for is the understatement of the year. In other words, able bodied people who choose not to work so they can collect off the backs of others are at best violating the spirit of the law, or at worst outright stealing.
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sky




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 02 2017, 6:14 pm
If the law allows it then it isn't stealing.

I think its a lousy way to live - but if someone is following the laws it is the fault of the laws and laws should be changed.

I was just reading an article about a town where almost everyone is almost disability and welfare legally. No one was embarrassed to interviewed. The system allows it. It should be changed drastically. But is hard to do when the voters are used to living that way. Making the poor poorer always looks bad and doesn't win votes.
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tigerwife




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 02 2017, 7:14 pm
Do you think that a family with a SAHM should be allowed to get government programs?

My take- If you go into life intentionally depending on government programs, do you think it will be easy to eventually transition or do you want to stay on programs forever? What happens if you manage day to day and suddenly a huge expense comes up?
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amother
Black


 

Post Sun, Apr 02 2017, 7:16 pm
Squishy wrote:
Yup, but almost everyone lies about their income. They don't count all their income like family help or stipend. They do based on the justification that tuitions, kosher food, rent, kosher life style is more expensive.

I wonder what the general public would say if Muslims were doing this to study the koran and claimed Burkinis and hallal food were more expensive, so they didn't have to follow the rules. And if so many of them claimed one program like Section 8 that those unaffiliated with the religion couldn't qualify.


Muslims send their kids to public schools
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MagentaYenta




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Apr 02 2017, 7:42 pm
amother wrote:
Muslims send their kids to public schools


In my town depending on the congregation, the children can go to public or private religious school. Public school children go to the their religious school after their secular classes are over so they have about 4 hours of RE a day.
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amother
cornflower


 

Post Sun, Apr 02 2017, 7:46 pm
If a person is on government programs, getting free medical care, therapy, OT, speech, food stamps and whatever else, it is very discouraging to go out and get a job that won't cover half of that (and especially for a SAHM that has been watching her own children so doesn't have a babysitting expense).
A person has to be very very motivated to start collage at age 30 when they have 4 kids and a huge pile of regular expenses they need. Even if they do make it through and get the degree, they will still have a good 5 years before they can (hopefully) make any income.
I don't think the problem is being on government programs while in kollel. The problem is that once you are on it is almost impossible to get on your feet.
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amother
Coffee


 

Post Sun, Apr 02 2017, 8:13 pm
my dh and I were just discussing this. We technically could qualify for government programs. My dh is starting a business and if he would take a small salary he could ask for programs. He feels it's not right to make other people pay for his life choices through the taxes they are required to pay so we aren't applying. B"H we are able to live off of savings so it's not a question of survival or anything. So to answer the question asked upthread- my dh doesn't believe on relying on government programs for your life choices regardless of what that life choice is - kollel, stay at home mom (which I am) or starting your own business.
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amother
Beige


 

Post Sun, Apr 02 2017, 8:16 pm
amother wrote:
What is so bad about planing to live off the government programs so that you can stay in kollel?


It's a poor plan if you need good medical care. Jersey care doesn't cover fertility treatments. Bonei Olam only gives a limited amount of money so you can't rely on that either.
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