Living off government programs

amother

cornflower

Tue, Apr 04 2017, 7:46 am

amother wrote:

I recall a few years back having a conversation with a kollel couple where the husband said if he doesn't find a job where he could bring home at least 60k a year after taxes, it wouldn't pay for him to leave kollel and stop with all the programs he qualifies for. He and apparently many of his contemporaries seem to be experts on how to milk the programs for maximum benefit..I just have a real problem with this mindset as a collective society..an individual that needs benefits to get through a rough patch totally makes sense..but as a way to set up ones life on a mass scale seems so wrong and unethical, whether technically legal or not.

I would say something similar. After I have to pay 14,500 a year for babysitting for two kids (that I currently forgo because I am home) + 10,000 for health insurance, we are already at 24k just to break even. I wouldn't go to work unless I was making double that--50k. 24k is not enough to support a family of five for a year, but if I was making 50 I would't qualify for medicaid anymore. So I end up better off being on the programs, being home with my kids, and trying to start up a business. No one is MAKING 60 off of government programs, it's just that to get off of them you need to be making enough to cover the new expenses you suddenly have.

Edit: Oh, yeah, I forgot about therapy! We have two OT + one psychotherapy covered per week, so that would be another (aprox) 14,500. That brings me to 40,000 I would need to make JUST TO BREAK EVEN. So when does it become worth it to work? When you have double what your benefits+expenses you don't have but will need later. In my case, it would be around 80, I guess (because that means only 40k a year minus taxes). At that point, 20k would go to rent, 15,500 would go to tuition, and I would be left with 4500$ to pay bills, groceries, clothing, and any other expenses. Hardly a plan.

amother

Ecru

Tue, Apr 04 2017, 8:02 am

The whole system in America is ridiculous. And they say this is capitalism? Seems like a stupid version of socialism (I think socialism is good but this American version is idiotic).
In Israel public health care COSTS THE VERY SAME FOR EVERYONE. Sure the better-off also supplement with private health care but at least half the country relies on public healthcare most of the time.
Nobody here in Israel decides to take a job or to stay home because of healthcare. A SAHM will pay the same low fees for basic healthcare that a CEO will.
I can't believe that a 'capitalist' society like the USA allows this kind of thing to go on. In Israel there are stipends for kollel but very very modest, and they are controversial too. I think 800 NIS a month? And nothing for SAHMs unless they are single and struggling.

33055

Tue, Apr 04 2017, 8:55 am

amother wrote:

Rough breakdown is that you need to earn $50,000 to net $40,000 in benefits. Since in 2013 the don't work package was worth $38,004 for a family of a mom and two kids, it has gone up significantly 4 years later.

You are also leaving out the khollel stipend. Last time I questioned this, it was $400 tax free weekly. So the khollel guy is definitely on the low side of what he would have to earn.

amother

cornflower

Tue, Apr 04 2017, 9:01 am

400$ weekly! HA! My husband is a rosh chabura for two sedarim a day and gives a shiur to balabatim in a shul at night. He gets 300$ THE WHOLE YEAR for being a rosh chabura, except before Pesach they give him 600$ extra for YT. If you break that up it is 75$ a month. The youngerlite in his chabura dont get paid at all. He doesn't get paid for the shiur at all. He does it because he loves Torah, loves teaching Torah, and feels this is his mission in life.

amother

Plum

Tue, Apr 04 2017, 9:58 am

It is a wonderful thing that the US has benefits. We live in a society where minimum wage earners fall below the poverty line, and where long-term unemployment exists. Of course we need to help these people!

The problem comes when people deliberately choose to live a lifestyle that will require them to need government assistance for prolonged periods. That's not most people, of course. 60% of people on food stamps work. Of the one-in-five Americans who participated in a program like Medicaid or food stamps from 2009 through 2012, 56 percent stopped participating within 36 months, while 43 percent lingered between three and four years. Nearly one-third quit receiving benefits within one year.

But what of those who stay on programs long term, not because they need to, but because they prefer to. Its a legal choice, but is is a moral one?

Imagine reading this story in local newspaper. Yolanda is 25 years old, with 4 kids and another on the way. She has a high school diploma and had a decent job before her second child was born. "But it was hard for me to work and look after the kids, so I figured, why should I? The government will feed my kids and let me stay home with them." Her husband, Paul, also does not hold a job. "I enjoy reading," says Paul. "People don't read enough. So I read. Let the other people who don't read pay my way."

Yolanda and Paul aren't doing anything illegal. But are their actions moral? Are they actions that should be encouraged in our society?

Do you have any different reactions is Yolanda is Yonina, Paul is Shaul, and read is learn Torah?

Isn't there a difference between needing help because sometimes people need help, and needing help because you've decided that's the best way to live your life?

SixOfWands

Tue, Apr 04 2017, 12:02 pm

amother wrote:

Why dont these people need to show up at the unemployment office once a week? I believe that's how it's done for many benefits in Israel. You are sent to job interviews and you aren't allowed to turn them down, unless you have a problem that makes you unable to work.
Just bizarre this whole situation, especially as the American public sees no benefit to kollel. It is chilul hashem.

Unemployment requires check-in (phone OK in most places) and stating that you're actively looking for a job. But unemployement benefits don't last that long.

People are discussing other benefits -- food stamps, Medicaid, etc. -- which have different requirements.

MagentaYenta

Tue, Apr 04 2017, 12:08 pm

amother wrote:

Unemployment is a totally different program. Your eligibility is determined how long you have previously worked. Typically if you have voluntarily quit a job (not under duress) you are not eligible.

Here in the US Unemployment doesn't send you looking for jobs, you have to be motivated to look on your own. Most unemployment offices (around here) have banks of computers for job searches and classes on interviewing and resume writing. They also offer GED programs.

amother

Lime

Tue, Apr 04 2017, 12:42 pm

Just to throw in my 2 cents:

I am a college student, my husband works in retail and makes very little. He is looking for better employment but most of what he is finding offer a minimal bump in salary but a huge loss to his current flexibility. He is looking, but he can't just take any old job, it's not advantageous.

We have two kids and receive food stamps, medicaid for the kids, subsidized healthcare for us, grants for my school, tuition assistance for one child, daycare assistance for the other, huge tax refunds due to EIC and other refundable credits, and help from family when all that's not enough.

I graduate this year and can reasonably expect somewhere around 50k when I start working.

However, daycare expenses will increase and almost all of our assistance will go away.

I am very concerned we will feel worse off than we are now.

I say this to point out that the current setup is hurtful. Minuscule bumps in income can cause someone to lose a larger proportion of help. I have known more than one individual to turn down a promotion because of the assistance they would lose.

amother

Khaki

Tue, Apr 04 2017, 1:52 pm

Here's my finances and the thoughts I've been having.

I have two kids with a third on the way...iyh.

I currently earn about $30,000 a year as a hebrew elementary school teacher. I also work as a freelancer (dont want to specify so it wont be too obvious.) My husband is in kollel where he thankfully earns about $14k a year. We report all of our income.

This year my freelance work thankfully took off in a bigger way than ever before. My income tax return for 2016 showed a salary of about $50,000 (not including my husband's stipend, though we did report it.) I'm obviously about to lose Medicaid and am not eligible for any other programs.

When I first heard about this I was really grateful - programs lock you in a box regarding income and make it way too easy to slip into cheating.

otoh I'm terrified to lose Medicaid. I live pretty simply (get zero help from either set of parents - never got help) and still feel tight at all times. Why??? I guess life is really expensive.

Freelancing also scares me because it can fluctuate so much. As another teacher said to me - why freelance? Youre working so hard! Just teach and get programs......but....that's not the life I want to live.

I hope Hashem will help me do it really right.

My husband (who is a very top kollel bh) told me that the day he has to lie to survive is the day he leaves kollel. So that's my life....

amother

Amethyst

Tue, Apr 04 2017, 5:40 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

Not all states offer 26 weeks of unemployment benefits. Your mileage varies depending on where you live in the US and the cause of your unemployment. Your unemployment may extend to 99 weeks if your job has been eliminated due to a company relocating overseas.

I wonder what the reasoning is for that. Why is someone who lost a job due to their company moving overseas more deserving of longer unemployment.... or why should it take them nearly 4x as long to find new employment? So weird.

MagentaYenta

Tue, Apr 04 2017, 6:31 pm

amother wrote:

It was in response to NAFTA and GAT many years ago. One day whole industries were gone. In some cases, in specialized industries, say timber, retraining was needed. Someone with little or no HS education who had worked in the woods their entire life was just about unemployable without training. The same holds true in manufacturing, folks lost their jobs to overseas factories that had robots performing the same work. These people had no skills besides what they were trained to do on their particular assembly line. Our electeds in DC made these choices, certainly based on the needs of some of their constituents. (IIRC there are a few different versions of this extension of benefits, not just one.)

tigerwife

Tue, Apr 04 2017, 6:59 pm

amother wrote:

Hang tight and may your freelance job take off even better than ever in 2017! You're doing great.

tigerwife

Tue, Apr 04 2017, 7:03 pm

amother wrote:

How many kollel couples do you know of where the wife is a SAHM and neither party works at all?

seeker

Tue, Apr 04 2017, 9:38 pm

amother wrote:

As I said upthread, when you lose medicaid you should qualify for Obamacare subsidies - is that not a thing where you live? Medicaid isn't a cliff anymore.

Freelancing is hard when you're on that edge, though. I found that over time my yearly income from freelancing tended to sort of even out to something similar enough each year that I was able to give them a prediction of what I thought my yearly income might be for the sake of determining eligibility. Or you could go with a generous monthly estimate and then you'd have to let them know if you make more than that, which would be a pain but...

WhatFor

Wed, Apr 05 2017, 1:02 am

amother wrote:

You are being pickyune and looking to start a catfight like usual on ImaMother

Dh took the exam scored 100
They called him offered him the job
Then told him that for 3 mons he wouldnt get med insurance or HUD payments so the paperwork involved to resume it probably isnt worth it

I am seeking clarity as to your narrative. Your posts maintain that a federal agency discouraged your DH to accept a position based on his financial income level.

I understood your posts to tell the following story: Your unemployed DH wanted to get a job with the U.S. Census Bureau. Your DH passed the test with flying colors, but when the U.S. Census Bureau called to offer your DH a job, they also mentioned that they had used his social security number to see what government benefits he was on and they didn't recommend that he take the position because the vast range of benefits as a government employee wouldn't kick in for a few months. Therefore, they advised him, he shouldn't take the position.

My confusion lies in the following points:

a) Status as a federal employee does not provide access to all government databases. Why and how did this US Census Bureau official have access to all of these databases from separate government programs?

b) A federal employee who has been provided access to government databases may only access a private individual's information as necessary for their job. Even if, unlikely as it may seem, a government employee had access to multiple federal databases, the interviewer would not be permitted to access it on a whim, and could lose their job if they did so. As someone's income is irrelevant to their qualification for a job, it's puzzling why an interviewer would risk their own career to go into separate databases to seek information on a prospective employee's income.

c) It also seems that it's preferable to get off of medicaid if it means you'll get the employee benefits offered here, even if they don't kick in for a few months: https://www.census.gov/about/c......html
Therefore, it's also puzzling why a prospective employee would be advised to stay on welfare, rather than take a wonderful opportunity that provides for long-term benefits and perks.