Living off government programs

amother

Honeydew

Mon, Apr 03 2017, 2:49 pm

amother wrote:

How did a potential employer (even a government employer) know that your family received government benefits? Something seems off here.

In any case, the job you're talking about was a part-time, short-term position. Surely a man with a genius IQ could do a lot better than that. I'm certain that he must be working in a job commensurate with his genius by now, and that you're long off of benefits.

When you take the exam you put down your SS number .
The agency sees right away what you are on
I wish he was working. iyh soon..

33055

Mon, Apr 03 2017, 4:01 pm

amother wrote:

You mentioned you live in a country where "one third of all people are on Medicaid!"
I don't know where that is and what you see but I think it is a non-true stereotype to spread that to the vast majority of frum Jews on programs. I am not familiar with the chassidim in Monsey that you are referencing, but I can tell you that in Lakewood and Brooklyn, this is totally not true. There may be some people who do that, but NOT the "majority of frum jews"

I didn't say the vast majority of frum Jews are on program. You shot your credibility with that statement.

The country I live in is the USA. I said the county I live in spends 62% of its budget on Medicaid.

I said the vast majority of frum Jews on program are not learning Torah full time. Everyone in the know is aware of the truth of that statement. They are also aware of the cash economy and the ability of most people on program to purchase luxury items.

If you are not in the know, then hang out here one day or go to the Medicaid office and watch the clientele. You can also do Google searches like Section 8 and Jews.

nechamashifra

Mon, Apr 03 2017, 4:25 pm

Quote:

What is so bad about planing to live off the government programs so that you can stay in kollel?

Here is what I tell my kids: "If everyone would do what you're doing (and this works with a lot of things in life I.e. not vaccinating, throwing your gum onto the sidewalk, not giving up your seat to a pregnant lady, living off the government etc) would the world be able to continue to work out?"

amother

Cerulean

Mon, Apr 03 2017, 4:58 pm

disclaimer: we get ebt and medicaid, HEAP during winter
disclaimer: we do not get section 8 (never applied for it)
disclaimer: we both work, but klei kodesh and it doesn't bring in that much (I'm part time)
disclaimer: we declare all of our income, including some income that comes in towards job expenses so technically we might exclude it

Some of us "living off the govt" would do what we were doing with or without the help. I wouldnt get a different job, I feel what I am doing is very important for the Jewsih people.

However, if food stamps did not exist, we would simply have less food. We'd have eggs (well now that the prices are back down) and tuna fish more often and chicken less often. We'd never have cereal and milk and only do oatmeal. We might get white pasta instead of whole wheat because it goes on sale more often. We'd have just potatoes and bananas all Pesach and hardly ever have fresh salad.

If medicaid did not exist, we would not go get a different job or go to college. We would just avoid going to the dr unless abslutely necessary. We would probably not do regular checkups or go to the dentist unless we had tooth pain.

Am I "living off the govt"? I appreciate the help they are giving us, but they are not defining our choices. They are simply making our chosen lifestyle less austere.

As far as value to learning Torah, perhaps you are aware that in the USA, churches are tax exempt. Religion (and presumably religious study) is apparently a value that the government acknowledges.

Hashem_Yaazor

Mon, Apr 03 2017, 5:07 pm

Just to chime in regarding Medicaid, when I got married, our budget allowed us to pay for health insurance. And we did so privately up until 2 years ago, when our premiums kept on rising so astronomically high that it wasn't feasible any more (my husband is in school now). No, Medicaid is not our plan to live but it's become almost impossible unless you have a generous work plan that will pay for your family. So it's not that people aren't thinking well but reality has changed so drastically in the past decade or two.

33055

Mon, Apr 03 2017, 5:37 pm

amother wrote:

Your logic is boggling.

Churches are tax exempt because there is no surer way to destroy religion than tax it. It is an incredible leap to say because we aren't destroying churches, we want our policies designed to alleviate poverty to be used to underwrite Torah.

amother

Cerulean

Mon, Apr 03 2017, 5:45 pm

Squishy wrote:

Why would tax destroy religion? Before the organizaiton I worked for got its tax exempt status it had to pay taxes. Donors did not get a tax deduction. It didn't destroy the organization.

Why is parsonage tax exempt? I understand it is a value assigned to religion.

Disclaimer since I know you are sensitive: cheating the system is NEVER ok.

amother

Amethyst

Mon, Apr 03 2017, 5:54 pm

amother wrote:

Ok, I believe that's true. Your choice is your choice with or without the gov't aide. But understand gov't doesn't have money trees in Washington. Your choice to accept the help you so appreciate is also making choices for others... others who will now have to pay more to keep you appreciating the help.

33055

Mon, Apr 03 2017, 6:03 pm

amother wrote:

LOL I am not sensitive. I am a realist.

When the government wants to control a certain behavior, they can tax it. One reason for the cigarette tax is social engineering. Protective tariffs influence people to purchase domestic goods rather than the more costly foreign goods.

If the government imposed excise taxes on religion, they could easily curtail it. If we were taxed per shul, shuls would consolidate and go underground.

There is actually a tax on profits made by non-profits because they have advantages over for tax businesses. UBIT This advantage is strong and creates wealth.

amother

Floralwhite

Mon, Apr 03 2017, 6:21 pm

amother wrote:

When you take the exam you put down your SS number .
The agency sees right away what you are on
I wish he was working. iyh soon..

I'm trying to understand what your saying.....your husband applied for a job and gave his social security number. The employer was able to see from his S.S.# that he receives medicaid and proceeded to advise him not to take the job.

Something seems very off.

WhatFor

Mon, Apr 03 2017, 6:36 pm

amother wrote:

I was about to say the same. Not that I'm doubting that the poster believes this, but there must have been a miscommunication somewhere.

Honeydew- who gave your dh his IQ test? Did you personally see the results? Why and how would a census official investigate whether your dh accepted welfare, and if they did, why would they encourage him to remain dependent on welfare rather than earn a living honorably?

amother

Coral

Mon, Apr 03 2017, 6:43 pm

nechamashifra wrote:

Quote:

What is so bad about planing to live off the government programs so that you can stay in kollel?

I don't get that argument. If everyone became doctors the world also couldn't continue to work out. For something to be wrong it has to be inherently wrong not just something that isn't practical for everyone to be doing. That argument sounds more like an answer for someone who is saying that MY doing something wrong won't harm anyone

amother

Plum

Mon, Apr 03 2017, 6:47 pm

amother wrote:

When you take the exam you put down your SS number .
The agency sees right away what you are on
I wish he was working. iyh soon..

In 2010, they hired somewhere around 1,000,000 people for those part-time, temporary census jobs. Are you saying that they investigated whether each of those million people had government benefits, then pulled their tax returns to see if they would lose those benefits if they took this part-time job, then called all of those in that category? Or was there something special about your husband?

But I'd guess that its illegal for a government worker in the census bureau, for example, to do that. Did you report this violation of your privacy?

amother

Honeydew

Mon, Apr 03 2017, 6:49 pm

WhatFor wrote:

Thats my question exactly..

amother

Floralwhite

Mon, Apr 03 2017, 6:56 pm

amother wrote:

So let's hear the argument why it's not inherently wrong to live off the government (other people). I think at face value, it seems wrong. For me to say that I don't want to work and others around me will then work and pay into programs that will support me so I can survive while not having to work. Seems ridiculous. Is there another way to look at this? Is there something I'm not seeing? We have 4 pages of this thread so far. I haven't seen anyone make a fair argument how the scenario I just described is fair.

nechamashifra

Mon, Apr 03 2017, 7:24 pm

nechamashifra wrote:

Quote:

Quote:
What is so bad about planing to live off the government programs so that you can stay in kollel?

Here is what I tell my kids: "If everyone would do what you're doing (and this works with a lot of things in life I.e. not vaccinating, throwing your gum onto the sidewalk, not giving up your seat to a pregnant lady, living off the government etc) would the world be able to continue to work out?"

I don't get that argument. If everyone became doctors the world also couldn't continue to work out. For something to be wrong it has to be inherently wrong not just something that isn't practical for everyone to be doing. That argument sounds more like an answer for someone who is saying that MY doing something wrong won't harm anyone

The only way that it's possible to plan on living off the government programs is because other people are working. You are basically saying yes, some people HAVE to work in order for us to live off these programs but it doesn't have to be me. How can you not see that it's wrong? Or am I missing something?

amother

Pumpkin

Mon, Apr 03 2017, 7:38 pm

amother wrote:

I disagree with equating gov't aide with tzedaka.

When I give tzedaka, I am giving in willingly and gladly to help others.

When I pay my taxes, I do so grudgingly to avoid jail.

Which is not to say that I don't think people should pay any taxes. Nor do I think that there aren't people very deserving of gov't aide.

But knowing that able-bodied people chose not to work, driving up the cost of taxes for others who have no say in the matter -- well, I think it's seriously wrong.

I agree with you as the giver of tzedaka, but I was addressing it as the receiver of tzedaka.

Choosing to use government programs as your income (ie doing no histadlus on your part to earn a parnassah), is the same as actively choosing to receive tzedaka as your parnassah.

It is not a torahdik value and it is not good for you or your children's middos.

(I am not talking about any individual's personal situation, but addressing op's original question).

amother

Wheat

Mon, Apr 03 2017, 7:54 pm

amother wrote:

635,000 to be exact