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Living off government programs
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 03 2017, 8:41 pm
nechamashifra wrote:
nechamashifra wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
What is so bad about planing to live off the government programs so that you can stay in kollel?


Here is what I tell my kids: "If everyone would do what you're doing (and this works with a lot of things in life I.e. not vaccinating, throwing your gum onto the sidewalk, not giving up your seat to a pregnant lady, living off the government etc) would the world be able to continue to work out?"


I don't get that argument. If everyone became doctors the world also couldn't continue to work out. For something to be wrong it has to be inherently wrong not just something that isn't practical for everyone to be doing. That argument sounds more like an answer for someone who is saying that MY doing something wrong won't harm anyone


The only way that it's possible to plan on living off the government programs is because other people are working. You are basically saying yes, some people HAVE to work in order for us to live off these programs but it doesn't have to be me. How can you not see that it's wrong? Or am I missing something?


Communism collapsed precisely for that reason. Too many people figured out that if they get equal and don't have to work, then why work?

You didn't get people producing because there was no incentives. You had to scare them into working.

Communism is wonderful in theory.
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amother
Sapphire


 

Post Mon, Apr 03 2017, 10:03 pm
SixOfWands wrote:
Because everyone in the United States is entitled to a free and appropriate public education.

The only ones who are entitled to government largesse in the form of food stamps, free or low cost medical assistance, rent assistance, etc. are those whose incomes are deemed low.

As a society, we are struggling to help those who NEED help. In that case, it is wrong to provide funding to those who choose not to work, as opposed to those who cannot work, or whose work still places them below the poverty line.


And yet, the government uses income as the main eligibility criteria which easily enables able bodied people to get on these programs.
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MagentaYenta




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 03 2017, 10:12 pm
amother wrote:
And yet, the government uses income as the main eligibility criteria which easily enables able bodied people to get on these programs.


What criteria do you think they should use?
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seeker




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 03 2017, 10:25 pm
MagentaYenta wrote:
What criteria do you think they should use?

Just for example, they might use some combination income plus a more personal assessment of need - such as employment status, reasons for un/underemployment, connections with other social services that can help people be less dependent in the long run, I can think of various options but our systems are overly dependent on formulas to a fault. Definitely there is an advantage to standardization, but there is a lot that gets lost in translation when things are overly bureaucratic.

Like WIC. Sure it has its shortcomings as well, but their goal is to improve children's health. They don't just hand out vouchers to anyone in the targeted income bracket. You need to provide regularly updated medical forms - I.e. your free (healthy) food is an incentive to get responsible medical care - and then every few months when receiving the vouchers you need to meet with their nutritionists for a little check-up and enrichment lesson. While you're there they also let you know about related programs they offer such as breastfeeding workshops or parenting classes. So they target their goals from a few angles. Having to go in person every few months is a bit of a pain but if you want it badly enough then you do it. And it's pretty pleasant once you get there. I could totally see how other social services could follow a slightly more similar model to be more effective.
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amother
Sapphire


 

Post Mon, Apr 03 2017, 10:27 pm
MagentaYenta wrote:
What criteria do you think they should use?


They can clearly define "able bodied individual" and have individuals justify their need to be unemployed. They can have individuals document their previous attempts to work. They can request more information and proof that individuals can't work.

What are valid reasons for a person not to work according to the law?
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 03 2017, 10:29 pm
amother wrote:
And yet, the government uses income as the main eligibility criteria which easily enables able bodied people to get on these programs.


They have to draw a firm line somewhere. It used to be an asset component to qualifying. Now you can inherit millions and be given millions in gifts and still qualify.

The government didn't figure on able bodied men willfully not reporting income to collect. They didn't figure on communities organizing and promoting the benefits to disproportionately benefit one sect.

Frankly, I don't have as much of a problem when people deliberately cripple themselves financially to collect. My big problem is the huge cash economy and using the benefits to fund a luxurious lifestyle that is unsupportable for future generations.
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amother
Sapphire


 

Post Mon, Apr 03 2017, 10:36 pm
Squishy wrote:
They have to draw a firm line somewhere. It used to be an asset component to qualifying. Now you can inherit millions and be given millions in gifts and still qualify.

The government didn't figure on able bodied men willfully not reporting income to collect. They didn't figure on communities organizing and promoting the benefits to disproportionately benefit one sect.

Frankly, I don't have as much of a problem when people deliberately cripple themselves financially to collect. My big problem is the huge cash economy and using the benefits to fund a luxurious lifestyle that is unsupportable for future generations.


I have a problem with people abusing the system too. It's not a lifestyle I endorse or participate in. However, if so many ordinary people manage to do it and get away with it. It makes you wonder why the system is that lax to allow for it to be happening that easily.
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 03 2017, 10:47 pm
amother wrote:
I have a problem with people abusing the system too. It's not a lifestyle I endorse or participate in. However, if so many ordinary people manage to do it and get away with it. It makes you wonder why the system is that lax to allow for it to be happening that easily.


It is a combo that no politician wants to take on the chassidum. The chassidum are organized as a block, they back winners, and know how to extract what they want from the winners. The government is aware of what goes on.

There is a whole infrastructure organized with its own company script to enable the alternative economy to work. It is extremely sophisticated, so I wouldn't classify it as ordinary.
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amother
cornflower


 

Post Mon, Apr 03 2017, 10:53 pm
How much money are people getting already? 1000$ a month? They are hardly living off of it. I don't think section 8 is so common with kollel couples, at least where I live. If someone chooses to get around 12k a year and not work, they aren't living in luxury! Even if they work part time with this and get a bit of family support, how much is that, 30k a year? All you working people there with normal salaries, would you choose this? If they choose to be poor their whole life and not work, isn't that their choice? If you are so mad about the unfairness of them choosing to live of the government, you can do it too--quit your job and have a "vacation" of being poor and not being able to pay tuition, buy your kids clothing, and sell your second car.
People have written about kollel couples rolling in money from their parents and THEN getting government funds...how many couples are really like that? How many parents have THAT much money that they can afford to give 100k to their kids from their own salaries. It seems to me that this population is very small.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 03 2017, 10:56 pm
Hashem_Yaazor wrote:
Marina, do you know in Ohio, the ODJFS will not give child care vouchers for grad students, only those going for undergrad? I'm not really sure the logic in that in today's day and age.


Dummies!
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 03 2017, 11:02 pm
amother wrote:
How much money are people getting already? 1000$ a month? They are hardly living off of it. I don't think section 8 is so common with kollel couples, at least where I live. If someone chooses to get around 12k a year and not work, they aren't living in luxury! Even if they work part time with this and get a bit of family support, how much is that, 30k a year? All you working people there with normal salaries, would you choose this? If they choose to be poor their whole life and not work, isn't that their choice? If you are so mad about the unfairness of them choosing to live of the government, you can do it too--quit your job and have a "vacation" of being poor and not being able to pay tuition, buy your kids clothing, and sell your second car.
People have written about kollel couples rolling in money from their parents and THEN getting government funds...how many couples are really like that? How many parents have THAT much money that they can afford to give 100k to their kids from their own salaries. It seems to me that this population is very small.


In NYC in 2013, a mother and her two kids was entitled to $38,004 a year in tax free benefits annually.

When you add in off the book salaries to this, you can live quite well.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 03 2017, 11:05 pm
amother wrote:
disclaimer: we get ebt and medicaid, HEAP during winter
disclaimer: we do not get section 8 (never applied for it)
disclaimer: we both work, but klei kodesh and it doesn't bring in that much (I'm part time)
disclaimer: we declare all of our income, including some income that comes in towards job expenses so technically we might exclude it

Some of us "living off the govt" would do what we were doing with or without the help. I wouldnt get a different job, I feel what I am doing is very important for the Jewsih people.

However, if food stamps did not exist, we would simply have less food. We'd have eggs (well now that the prices are back down) and tuna fish more often and chicken less often. We'd never have cereal and milk and only do oatmeal. We might get white pasta instead of whole wheat because it goes on sale more often. We'd have just potatoes and bananas all Pesach and hardly ever have fresh salad.

If medicaid did not exist, we would not go get a different job or go to college. We would just avoid going to the dr unless abslutely necessary. We would probably not do regular checkups or go to the dentist unless we had tooth pain.

Am I "living off the govt"? I appreciate the help they are giving us, but they are not defining our choices. They are simply making our chosen lifestyle less austere.

As far as value to learning Torah, perhaps you are aware that in the USA, churches are tax exempt. Religion (and presumably religious study) is apparently a value that the government acknowledges.


Nah. That's what you say now. But if your child had a chronic condition and there was no medicaid, you'd go to work.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 03 2017, 11:07 pm
It's a huge chillul hashem also
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 03 2017, 11:09 pm
amother wrote:
my dh and I were just discussing this. We technically could qualify for government programs. My dh is starting a business and if he would take a small salary he could ask for programs. He feels it's not right to make other people pay for his life choices through the taxes they are required to pay so we aren't applying. B"H we are able to live off of savings so it's not a question of survival or anything. So to answer the question asked upthread- my dh doesn't believe on relying on government programs for your life choices regardless of what that life choice is - kollel, stay at home mom (which I am) or starting your own business.


I really respect this. Thanks for writing !
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MagentaYenta




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Apr 03 2017, 11:10 pm
amother wrote:
They can clearly define "able bodied individual" and have individuals justify their need to be unemployed. They can have individuals document their previous attempts to work. They can request more information and proof that individuals can't work.

What are valid reasons for a person not to work according to the law?


You do realize it is not against the law to be unemployed?
(Trust me one has to be verifiably disabled in order to collect disability or claim that a disability is precluding them from working for the purposes of unemployment or other benefits. It is an arduous task, that sometimes takes years.)The fact of the matter is here in the US the majority of folks who collect TANF, are on Medicaid or receive SNAP benefits do work.

Depending on your state and it's interconnectivity, your work history, or at least how much you have withheld on state taxes (and pay into SS) is cross referenced, at least it is in my state. But that is a vehicle for verifying income. Then again this is an issue that was subject to states own decisions regarding welfare reform many years ago. If your state doesn't have this info it's no ones fault but their own. Contact your state reps.

Factually the majority of individuals who collect TANF, SNAP, section 8 voucher or are on Medicaid, are employed.

The issue is when people don't get paid on the books and lie about income. It is not against the law for a Jew to study full time or collect benefits, if according to their states eligibility criteria they qualify for a benefit.
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amother
Sapphire


 

Post Mon, Apr 03 2017, 11:28 pm
MagentaYenta wrote:
You do realize it is not against the law to be unemployed?
(Trust me one has to be verifiably disabled in order to collect disability or claim that a disability is precluding them from working for the purposes of unemployment or other benefits. It is an arduous task, that sometimes takes years.)The fact of the matter is here in the US the majority of folks who collect TANF, are on Medicaid or receive SNAP benefits do work.

Depending on your state and it's interconnectivity, your work history, or at least how much you have withheld on state taxes (and pay into SS) is cross referenced, at least it is in my state. But that is a vehicle for verifying income. Then again this is an issue that was subject to states own decisions regarding welfare reform many years ago. If your state doesn't have this info it's no ones fault but their own. Contact your state reps.

Factually the majority of individuals who collect TANF, SNAP, section 8 voucher or are on Medicaid, are employed.

The issue is when people don't get paid on the books and lie about income. It is not against the law for a Jew to study full time or collect benefits, if according to their states eligibility criteria they qualify for a benefit.


So there's the answer to OPs question. She was asking about collecting to learn in kollel, not about working a dishonest cash business. It's legal to be an unemployed able bodied person learning in kollel collecting benefits as long as you're below the income bracket in some states.

I wasn't implying that it's against the law to be unemployed. I was giving examples of possible ways to prevent able bodied people from "living off the government" instead of going to work. Low Income being the determining factor for program eligibility doesn't accomplish that.
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amother
Seagreen


 

Post Mon, Apr 03 2017, 11:42 pm
amother wrote:
So there's the answer to OPs question. She was asking about collecting to learn in kollel, not about working a dishonest cash business. It's legal to be an unemployed able bodied person learning in kollel collecting benefits as long as you're below the income bracket in some states.

I wasn't implying that it's illegal to be unemployed. I was giving examples of possible ways to prevent able bodied people from "living off the government" instead of going to work.


I think the issue becomes when people are lying on tax forms. I'm going to assume that the vast majority of frum jews don't. But, for example, a family member who learned all day would write that they were a "salesperson" on their tax forms, because that's how their kollel told them to list it. I don't think most people would think their job description would generally be described as sales (although maybe they did fundraising for the yeshiva so that counted? Idk.)
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amother
Cerulean


 

Post Mon, Apr 03 2017, 11:42 pm
marina wrote:
Nah. That's what you say now. But if your child had a chronic condition and there was no medicaid, you'd go to work.

I suppose so. If we could not possibly sustain ourselves, we would need ot leave our fulfilling jobs and look instead for jobs that pay better. BH that is not the case at the moment.

I imagine if you ended up with needs that far exceeded your current abilities, youd also seek a better paying job or additional work even with the higher stress etc. Right now, you probably seek to work at the balance of "meeting my needs" and "functioning as a human." I do too.

We know that we CAN live without govt benefits. We have been off programs for various amounts of time, and managed albeit with a lower standard of living. So no, the govt is not "enabling" our lifestyle. We are grateful that it is there, and it definitely makes us able to function more as mentschen, but it was not a factor in our choice of lifestyles.
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amother
Honeydew


 

Post Tue, Apr 04 2017, 12:49 am
WhatFor wrote:
I think what posters are saying is that it's highly unlikely that it happened the way you are telling us, even if you believe it happened that way.


You are being pickyune and looking to start a catfight like usual on ImaMother

Dh took the exam scored 100
They called him offered him the job
Then told him that for 3 mons he wouldnt get med insurance or HUD payments so the paperwork involved to resume it probably isnt worth it
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amother
Jade


 

Post Tue, Apr 04 2017, 4:57 am
I recall a few years back having a conversation with a kollel couple where the husband said if he doesn't find a job where he could bring home at least 60k a year after taxes, it wouldn't pay for him to leave kollel and stop with all the programs he qualifies for. He and apparently many of his contemporaries seem to be experts on how to milk the programs for maximum benefit..I just have a real problem with this mindset as a collective society..an individual that needs benefits to get through a rough patch totally makes sense..but as a way to set up ones life on a mass scale seems so wrong and unethical, whether technically legal or not.
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