MYOB/Husky boy/ S/O

WhatFor

Tue, Apr 04 2017, 4:54 pm

Of course science can change but right now we function according to the best science can offer.

Right now science tells us that 3,500 calories equals 1 pound of fat. Therefore, if you give your five year old a daily diet of 5,000 calories, they might become overweight and then obese. Exercising also burns calories, so if your child does not engage in any physical activity, their body will store any excess calories consumed and not burned off in a form we call fat.

BUT SOME PEOPLE HAVE[INSERT THE MILLION EXCEPTIONS TO THE RULE: THYROID CONDITION/DIGESTIVE DISORDER/HORMONAL DISORDER/FAST METABOLISM/SLOW METABOLISM/ OTHER]

Yes. Some people have special conditions, so the general rules will not apply to them. If your doctor has told you that you or your child has a certain condition that affects weight, follow up with a nutritionist/specialist (if you haven't already) to best ensure the body is absorbing all necessary nutrients and that you/your child are remaining as healthy as you can.

Everyone else should be eating healthy foods and exercising regularly.

Of course genes play a role. In my own family, those with a sweet tooth are on the much heavier side and those who prefer vegetables (and more savory) are generally thinner. These food preferences are presumably genetic (especially as they were evident in very early childhood). The sweet toothers do have a greater struggle than the savory lovers to maintain a healthy weight. But the fact remains that consuming more sugar will generally lead to increased weight gain. A school that regularly provides junk food and soda to children is doing them a tremendous disservice.

Similarly, those who have higher energy may find it easier to work out/exercise than those who seem to be more predisposed to be a couch potato. Those predispositions may be genetic. However, those who spend more time exercising properly will typically be in better shape than those who aren't. A school that does not provide its students with a PE program, is doing them a tremendous disservice.

This is common sense and I hardly know why this is even being debated.

33055

Tue, Apr 04 2017, 5:27 pm

[quote="Fox"] I to admit that I'm completely confused. You started out talking about educating people based on legitimate science, but you seem to have reversed course somewhere along the way.

Perhaps I missed it, but how did we establish that frum Jews are statistically more obese than other Americans?

When states are ranked by the percentage of obese adults, NY comes in 39th, and NJ comes in 41st. OH ranks 8th and IL ranks 29th, but all other states with significant frum populations rank even lower than NY/NJ in obesity.

I'm not sure why you want to reject all the science that says that diets that result in obesity aren't simply a matter of restricting the nosh and chocolate pudding. How can we combat poor diet if we refuse to examine why people gravitate toward nosh and chocolate pudding?

Squishy wrote:
Do you feel the fact there is an abundance of food available in the country that this may be the leading correlation to the fat epidemic we are facing? Countries in famine have skinny populations. Counties in abundance have heavier populations.

More food = fatter people

Fox wrote:

So what's the solution? Make sure there's a famine every few years?

The real question is, "Why do some people's brains tell them to keep eating when they no longer need nutrients?"

Most animals, by the way, do not continue eating far beyond their need for nutrition. However, Labrador retrievers are a well-known exception. Unlike most other dogs, they are known for their insatiable appetites and their extreme propensity for obesity. In fact, as many as 60 percent of Labs are obese. Just last summer, the reason was determined: Labs are missing all or part of a gene that helps their bodies know how much fat is stored and how much nutrition they need to survive.

No one is suggesting that human obesity can be explained as simply, but remember that this research came out less than a year ago! We are really in the infancy of research into this stuff.

I haven't heard anyone defend unlimited chocolate pudding. But please, please don't dumb down the causes of obesity and metabolic disorders.

I never said where I got the information that frum people are 7 times more likely to be obese than the rest of the population. I figured I would let someone else Google it.

The reason that I want to keep the debate at a basic level is because we need to first agree on the lowest common denominator which is that more food equals more weight without an increase in activity.

Then we can get into why people eat.

The ones that defend unlimited chocolate pudding is the school that serves it. The boys love it. There is no wasted food. They see it as a win situation.

They are not up anything sophisticated because the basic message is not there yet.

Once the message of more food = more fat, then we can discuss all the interesting research. I am particularly interested in the research on stomach hormones coming out of Columbia Presbyterian.

amother

Aubergine

Tue, Apr 04 2017, 5:41 pm

My kids' school doesn't serve chocolate pudding but some other meals are: hot dogs; cholent (on a wed!), a choice of baked ziti or plain noodles, potato knishes and salad. Iow not very healthy meals at all. And if a kid doesn't like anything on the menu, there's an endless supply of rye bread.

The school awards a black and white cookie or danish to the talmid hashavua. Rebbeim take classes for slurpees, as a prize. One rebbe gave out laffy taffys from a vat on his desk, for kids raising their hands.

Personally I think it's laziness. Just easier for the schools to keep the kids happy, and give good incentives, for cheap.

Fox

Tue, Apr 04 2017, 6:44 pm

Squishy wrote:

The reason that I want to keep the debate at a basic level is because we need to first agree on the lowest common denominator which is that more food equals more weight without an increase in activity.

Then we can get into why people eat.

The ones that defend unlimited chocolate pudding is the school that serves it. The boys love it. There is no wasted food. They see it as a win situation.

They are not up anything sophisticated because the basic message is not there yet.

I'm all in favor of tough love. I'm all in favor of being honest about the health risks of obesity. I'm all for rejecting the claim that you can be healthy at any weight.

But do you really believe that people are too stupid to understand that metabolic issues are complex?

They seem to have gotten the message about depression pretty easily. People don't necessarily understand how serotonin works, but that hasn't kept them from learning that depression is not just stubbornness or a negative attitude.. Heck, we have endless threads here where people compare SSRI drugs as if they were critiquing fine wines!

Oversimplifications aren't a harmless way to change people's behavior. They are cruel, mendacious lies. They're the equivalent of telling a clinically depressed person that he'll feel better if he cheers up. Um, well, yeah.

Moreover, they don't work.

You don't have to have a degree in biochemistry to understand that (a) our brains are supposed to tell us when to stop eating; (b) some people's brains don't do this correctly; (c) because we don't really yet understand how to make their brains send the right signals, those those people will have to learn ways to trick their bodies/brains so that they don't damage themselves (or so they fit into their leggings).

There, was that so complicated?

amother

Firebrick

Tue, Apr 04 2017, 7:13 pm

I've been struggling with my weight for many years now, certainly not due to lack of knowledge or effort. I have read quite a bit about health and nutrition, and keep reading the newest research. From my experience any time I try a restrictive diet it doesn't work out in the long run. Right now the past few months I was cutting calories and ended up gaining more than 10 pounds. How does that work? No clue. All I know is I'm worse off than I was before dieting and hating how I look in the mirror and am getting quite depressed about it.

Every time I go on the scale and see an increase in weight I "punish" myself by restricting further. It doesn't help. I just end up either exactly the same or gaining even more. Right now I think I should go back to doing the only thing that ever really worked for me; eating a full well-rounded breakfast, avoiding sugary foods, and think about food as little as possible. I also have to accept that without medical intervention I will never be slim. I'm thinking of doing the band surgery but I don't think I weigh enough to qualify.

marina

Tue, Apr 04 2017, 8:35 pm

Fox wrote:

Just to refresh your recollection, Fox, here's a defense of fat-shaming you posted a few weeks ago:

Quote:

Now, onto the fat-shaming....

* The body positivity movement started as a way to encourage women to accept their real-life, un-Photoshopped bodies -- not as a defense of obesity. Has it gone too far?

* The reality is that most men are not as attracted to young women who are obese. Period. That may be wrong, but you can't force people to be attracted to you. Is the "beautiful at any size" philosophy setting up girls for disappointment?

* Obesity during childhood through early adulthood is strongly connected with the most extreme health risks (as opposed to women who gain weight after childbearing or people who gain weight in middle age). These are specifically the people Milo is talking to, and perhaps the message should be different for them.

* Social feedback obviously motivates a lot of our behavior. How can we harness that to improve behavior, and what are the limits/drawbacks?

http://www.imamother.com/forum.....10749

33055

Tue, Apr 04 2017, 8:58 pm

Fox wrote:

You are missing the point that you MUST start with basics until you can go complex.

We have people that do not believe the earth revolves around the sun. The Torah tells us different. They are not going to understand any science of astronomy without that basic fact.

Similarly, we have people that do not understand the causes of depression much less that it should be treated. It should be hidden away. I knew someone who was suicidal. His mother refused to treat him in patient because she said it would look bad. I told her a dead son would look worse. There is enough ignorance about mental illness that the basic fact it should be evaluated/treated is not so obvious. You can't get to how does serotonin work before you acknowledge there is a reason to know what it is.

We have similar issues with nutrition. If you start off with metabolic issues are complex, now you have given the excuse not to address the problem on the most basic level because it is complex.

I, and a few posters, would love to get the message across to the Rebbes to stop rewarding with junk nosh. I have also experienced the requirements for 30 boys to send in 30 treats for the class the same day. This is insanity. One parent brings pizza. Another brings ice cream. Another brings soda. The rest bring assorted junky treats.

Why is it so difficult for you to understand you MUST address the issue on a simple level first? Ideally, we start when the children are young, and they are not ready for complex.

Private schools do not have the resources to address why any individual over eats. Getting the educators to understand the message that children need to eat healthier and not be exposed to unlimited amounts of junk would be a victory. Getting a widespread consensus of the rebbenium to stop studying Torah for any amount of time and learn all about the complex causes of overeating isn't going to happen in the near future.

33055

Tue, Apr 04 2017, 9:42 pm

octopus wrote:

umm...how many non-religious ppl do you know? I know quite a few. They are not all thin by far. Give me a break. And a lot has to do with socioeconomic backgrounds as well. And that's across the board. Poorer ppl in westernized world tend to be heavier than richer counterparts. I'm sorry, squishy, you are coming off way too strong. You want a discussion. But you want it to go your way. Stop being so militant about it. People can have opinions. It's okay.

You weaken yourself when you attack me.

So what you know non-religious heavy people? Obesity is epidemic. It is not limited to frum Jews, but religious people have significantly greater odds of being obese in the US.They didn't break the statistics down by which region. In Israel, they report the odds to 7 times more likely to be obese among frum people. Wouldn't a Jewish survival gene effect all Jews more or less equally?

I have not found anything about this protective gene in the frum gene pool.

I agree that there socio-economic factors and genetic factors. But you can control certain metabolic factors and you can control what your diet is.

chaiz

Tue, Apr 04 2017, 11:23 pm

Squishy, I am not sure how you think you are going to help the frum community with your snobbism and paternalistic attitude.
No, the science of weight is complicated so making definitive statements about what does or doesn't cause weight gain is not going to help anyone. Even what you call basic science is not so basic and is not necessarily the truth. Even though you think all frummies are uneducated simpletons, I do happen to read a lot of what doctors write on science and if I have the time, to go back to the studies. Weight is not simple for many medical professionals. Most would be wary to make such simple statements that you are making.
And if you can't even attempt to understand why people were reacting to the emotional response of a grandmother to her toddler's eating habits, then the issue is with you. Maybe come down a bit and speak to real live people about how life works for them. And maybe read the actual studies, not reports of studies, to see that no it is not so basic.

I think you need to read Fox's posts and read more into the subjects she brought up.

As an FYI, just to show you that there is a lot we don't know. There have been real bona fide studies showing that overweight people (not obese) have longer life expectancies than skinnier people. There have been studies that seem to show us that it is not the actual weight that is an issue, but how doctors treat overweight and obese patients. (Similar to how other types of people are ignored or mistreated.)

water_bear88

Tue, Apr 04 2017, 11:50 pm

Squishy wrote:

Please do your own investigating of the link between frum Jews and obesity. There is a lot out there.

http://jewishweek.timesofisrae.....nity/

Whom are you calling not frum??? The seven-times-more-likely statistic you quoted is not about frum Jews, it's about Charedi Jews in Israel compared to other Israeli Jews. Let's talk about bans on boys playing soccer and lack of army service, shall we? Anecdotally- in my neighborhood, the number of people I see who appear to be obese seems about what I'd expect in a population that sees most obesity caused by metabolic disorders. All the teenage boys I know are trying to get in shape to apply for elite army units. Most of the little boys play soccer. Bagruyot, the matriculation exams, include PE.

Charedim are obese because their leaders encourage them to lead unhealthy lifestyles.

aquad

Wed, Apr 05 2017, 2:20 am

http://www.ynetnews.com/articl......html
A huge part of the problem with obesity in Israel and Haredim is poverty: many Haredim live below the poverty line and have huge families. As cheap as fresh produce is in Israel, it's still expensive when you are feeding a large family. Sugary snacks are cheaper than fresh fruits. And, of course, there is the cultural element of food surrounding all chagim and smachot, as well as little to no approved form of exercise besides walking (and bike-riding for men). Nutritional education is the least of the problems.
I often shop in a Charedi supermarket, and the sugary 'yogurt' that has no live and active cultures (called Bio in Israel) is cheaper than the plain yogurt with live and active cultures- which do you think a family on a shoe-string budget will buy? The same could be said for bisli vs apples, much less a head of bodek lettuce.

FranticFrummie

Wed, Apr 05 2017, 2:30 am

I don't think it's a "frum Jew problem", I think it's an Ashkenazic cultural problem, especially among the Yeshivish, Chassidish, and Charedim.

I see tons of fit and healthy Sephardim, Temanim, Mizrachim, Ethiopian, and Yemenite Jews.

People from Eastern Europe, Jewish or otherwise, tend to be bigger on average. I'm not a geneticist, but there definitely seems to be some kind of pattern there.

I do agree with Squishy that the cultural idea of stuffing kids with treats is a huge problem in schools, and that parents need to speak up and demand change.

In my Sephardi shul in Seattle, the seuda slishit consists of a small challah roll, tuna salad, fresh fruits and veggies, avocado dip, and a TINY bowl of candies. I see kids happily piling healthy stuff on their plates, and finishing all of it before the parents let their kids take from the candy bowl. The kids are also encouraged to run around and play in the enclosed courtyard, instead of being forced to sit still. No fat kids, and the only overweight adults are the very elderly who have joint problems.