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amother

Rose

Tue, Apr 04 2017, 2:32 pm

I'm getting so aggravated with this site! Anytime anyone talks about spending money, many of you feel the need to judge and state on how little u spend. Being frugal (I.e. Cheap) does not mean we all have to live life that way. I can buy new clothing for yom tov and not get hugged on my post! I can go on a nice vacation! I can buy myself a new wig! And no, I'm not on government programs, so don't worry it's not part of ur chesbon! Banging head

amother

Azure

Tue, Apr 04 2017, 2:43 pm

You are right. It's much easier to be rude online than in real life.

amother

Green

Tue, Apr 04 2017, 2:43 pm

Interesting. I guess I open different threads than you since I've never noticed this sentiment. I do think you may get a more positive response by phrasing this in a less accusatory manner.

FranticFrummie

Tue, Apr 04 2017, 2:52 pm

I hear your frustration, OP. Still, this would be a good time to practice "I messages".

I feel frustrated when I hear people say_______________.
I get defensive, because this makes me feel____________.
I wish people would state things like this ____________ instead. I feel it would be more productive, and not hurt others.

If you feel like you are doing the right thing with your finances, then you shouldn't let other people's opinions get to you. You do not owe anyone an explanation. Enjoy in good health, to 120. Obviously, Hashem wants you to have this blessing.

Zehava

Tue, Apr 04 2017, 2:58 pm

They're jealous. I don't blame them. I feel weird posting about stuff I do or things I buy when so many struggle for the bare minimum. May this be your biggest frustration ever.

Fox

Tue, Apr 04 2017, 4:20 pm

I think sometimes it's hard online to delineate personal issues and societal issues.

You're going to get a lot of hyper-frugal responses here on Imamother because we self-select frum women who are both intelligent and textually proficient. Intelligent women who read more than average are likely to be concerned about general "issues of concern to frum society."

One of those issues is the incredible expansion of material standards in the last 20-30 years. I trust that I don't need to give extensive examples, but there are plenty at all stages of life and at all income levels.

So when someone comes along with a personal question or problem that touches on this issue, it's very easy for all of us to start fulminating against spiralling materialism.

Of course, this is hardly ever helpful to the OP, who is often branded with the dreaded "e-word" ("entitled"). All of us should remember that societal problems aren't usually solved by bashing people, and the bashees should be reminded that it's not them, it's us.

amother

Pink

Tue, Apr 04 2017, 4:25 pm

FranticFrummie wrote:

Don't you mean 'when I hear people making explanations, I feel ____' ? Wink

Maya

Tue, Apr 04 2017, 5:37 pm

This has long been an issue on this site. On here, poverty is lauded and wealth is derided. Extreme frugality, which I view as an unhealthy obsession, is widely praised here, the more radical the better.

The psychology is, as Zehava said, jealousy.

amother

Pink

Tue, Apr 04 2017, 5:52 pm

Sometimes I feel like saying 'the Iron Curtain has Fallen! We can all spend the money we earned on whatever we want! Rejoice!!'

Fox

Tue, Apr 04 2017, 6:33 pm

amother wrote:

Sometimes I feel like saying 'the Iron Curtain has Fallen! We can all spend the money we earned on whatever we want! Rejoice!!'

Which would be perfectly fine if this weren't a frum website. Unfortunately, that attitude is in direct contradiction to the Torah. We aren't permitted to use our resources solely according to our own whims -- even if we give tzeddekah and pay full tuition.

Of course, every time this is pointed out, posters become completely unhinged. In fact, people usually ask for sources. On one occasion, I actually ask Rabbi Shmuel Fuerst, sh"lita, the Agudath Israel dayan in Chicago and a talmid of Reb Moshe Feinstein, z"tl, for a few spots where the Torah says this. He looked at me quizzically, made sure he understood my question, and then said, "Where doesn't the Torah say this?"

I agree with Maya that an I'm-more-frugal-than-you-are attitude is unhealthy, but I disagree that jealousy is the cause. I think it's an over-reaction to the fact that so many people have abandoned the values of modesty and seemliness when it comes to finances -- and see no problem with doing so.

amother

Amber

Tue, Apr 04 2017, 7:24 pm

You didn't like that I said I buy beautiful clothing at a gemach? That I can get a new wardrobe for $80? And I'm thrilled about it?
Why is that so bothersome to you? Does it perhaps make you feel guilty?

amother

Rose

Tue, Apr 04 2017, 7:37 pm

amother wrote:

Huh? Did I comment on u not spending money? My issue is with people commenting when someone does spend money. If you don't want to spend u don't have to, but when I do (or anyone else for that matter) the response is always can u afford it, do u neeed it etc.
why would I feel guilty? U make no sense. I'm allowed to buy myself pretty things and nice clothing for yom tov.

amother

Pink

Tue, Apr 04 2017, 7:45 pm

Fox wrote:

Honestly I've never heard that in my entire life. It's against Halacha to spend too much money on clothes? Is there an amount? And, sorry--this lav is considered bein adam l'chaveiro?
And I don't think the reason women here dislike it is that it's against Halacha.
The general sentiment that comes across when women on this site object is more 'you're so stupid. You should spend your money on things *I* like.'

Fox

Tue, Apr 04 2017, 10:25 pm

amother wrote:

Honestly I've never heard that in my entire life. It's against Halacha to spend too much money on clothes? Is there an amount? And, sorry--this lav is considered bein adam l'chaveiro?

There are many, many instances where wealthy people are prevented from spending their money in certain ways. The most obvious example is bringing korbanos to the Beis HaMikdash. Wealthy people must use straw baskets just as poorer people do. We also learn that young women wore similar clothes when they went out on Tu B'Av to avoid unflattering comparisons between richer and poorer girls.

Now, does that mean that we must run our communities as communist collectives in which no one is allowed to have more than anyone else?

Of course not!

But it means that people with more resources must make sure that they do not spend their money in ways that will come to embarrass people of lesser means.

It also means that they should not erect "stumbling blocks" within their communities by escalating standards beyond the reach of most people.

Once upon a time, these ideas were common in every small town in America. It wasn't "seemly" to have a lifestyle radically out of sync with everyone else. Even if you could afford it, you picked and chose your luxuries. Maybe you spent more on clothes but drove an older car. Or perhaps you took a nice vacation every year, but your house was pretty much like everyone else's. Or your house was really nice, but your car was average and vacation was a week at a nearby lake.

Nor does it mean that you should be giving away all your excess cash to tzeddekah. Excessive charity can also hobble a community. One of the most important things wealthy people can do is invest in money-making businesses that employ Jews. They will increase their own wealth and give a far more valuable gift than tzeddekah.

amother wrote:

The general sentiment that comes across when women on this site object is more 'you're so stupid. You should spend your money on things *I* like.'

ITA. I think all of us feel wounded when other people react to our choices with, "Ugh! I would never!"

For example, open a thread on Ikea furniture, and someone will be sure to comment, "Oh, I would never buy furniture from Ikea! The quality is just awful!" Well, la di da for you, sweetie. Who says I want such high quality in my furniture. Maybe it's more important for me to have an expensive shaitel. Or maybe I want to spend my money on high-end copper pots and pans. Maybe I'm saving for an Hermes Birkin.

I always make fun of myself when the topic comes up. I never spend more than $150 on a shaitel. My dining room table is actually a used conference table (a steal at $198 in 1993). Don't even venture into my sadly dilapidated kitchen. But I love sterling flatware and Hermes scarves (purchased on the secondary market -- I'm not insane!). We all have different luxuries that bring us happiness, and "Ugh, I would never!" is not a nice way to respond to what someone else treasures.

LittleDucky

Tue, Apr 04 2017, 10:39 pm

Agree Fox...
I think it also has to do with the questions posed. Threads that compare expenditures I personally don't find helpful. "How much should I spend on a Winter wardrobe?" Just begs the response "however much you want/can actually spend". Your budget, priorities, and needs are vastly different than mine. If you live in Hawaii it would differ from Nebraska which would differ from Ukraine. Your finances aren't mine either. Therefore, asking me what I spend and deciding what to do based off of society's response is nonsensical. If I can only spend $10 that is what I can spend. If I have 3,000 to spend, I will decide to spend somewhere up to that but no more. So how do these threads help anyone?

das

Tue, Apr 04 2017, 10:44 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong but figures in the gemara were known to have lived lavishly for their day. R' Yehuda Hanasi, for instance always had expensive imported foods--and was known to support the poor.

lucky14

Tue, Apr 04 2017, 11:05 pm

amother wrote:

Interesting. I guess I open different threads than you since I've never noticed this sentiment. I do think you may get a more positive response by phrasing this in a less accusatory manner.

same. And if people are getting good bargains and deals and talking about it then it doesn't mean they're looking down on those who aren't. I try to find things cheap and use coupons and stuff and I like sharing that with other people because it can be helpful. I also have fun finding things at really great prices. I don't look down on people who buy expensive things.

edited to add: oooh I just read a post that I think may have caused you to write this post. Yeah people said some not nice things there. Ignore. People can say stupid things sometimes. When threads start to sound like that I stop reading usually.

amother

Azure

Wed, Apr 05 2017, 4:02 am

In person, if someone mentioned in conversation that she spent $500 on her spring wardrobe, would you then lecture her on the virtues of moderation? Or humble-brag about how you only spent $50? If you wouldn't in person then why is it OK in writing online to a stranger?

FranticFrummie

Wed, Apr 05 2017, 5:40 am

We have a concept of not displaying (in person or online) too much of our blessings. We bring an ayin hara on ourselves, and it causes discontent, jealousy, and even emotional pain on people who cannot relate.

"I just bought a 5 million dollar home, and I can't decide whether I want gold plated sinks, or solid silver. Please help me decide!" "Does this mink coat make me look fat?" "My amazing husband took the kids for a whole week, and sent me to a spa in Hawaii!"

Meanwhile, another poster is set up a GoFundMe site, because she can't afford diapers, and her husband just got laid off.

We need to think about how what we say affects those around us, and behave with sensitivity.

Simple1

Wed, Apr 05 2017, 7:03 am

amother wrote:

In person, most people know their audience and would avoid discussing how much they spend if they know the other is struggling financially.

This site has a wide range of people so you never know how a post will trigger any given person.

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