south african etiquette

amother

Thu, Sep 20 2007, 6:34 pm

I'm American. My husband was born in SA, but grew up in the States. I feel like his family hates me because I come across as too opinionated, too intense. I'm not even a New Yorker! I'm actually a quiet person who people generally say is sweet and nice. But my in-laws don't think so. Whenever I express an opinion that isn't completely flowery and effusive and perky, they disapprove. His whole family has hinted to DH, at various times, that I'm too controlling and not a proper wife--just because I ask him to help with diaper changes, etc.

I want to make things better. Is anyone her South African? Please can you give me tips in how to say things in a way that is acceptable to them.

Like, if I don't like something, how can I express that when I'm asked my oopinion, without coming across as too "strong" (a favorite word of theirs).

I have noticed that all the women in his family (non-frum) spend a lot of time asking their dh what he wants and complimenting him and asking his advice on every little thing--but in actuality it's the women who make all the decisions and run everything. It's hilarious to watch. They are the biggest control freaks and they get what they want, always, while making their dh think he's the one doing it. I don't feel comfortable playing all those games though--I like to be pretty straight. How can I please them without losing myself?

Pickle Lady

Thu, Sep 20 2007, 9:26 pm

I am american married to south african borna and raised in south africa. I haven't been around his family much since they live in SA and we live in US. While I have heard that south africans are family oriented my husband can go a month not speaking to his parents and its not problem. I would freak and so would my family if I did that, maybe its because I am a girl though.

Your husband married you for you. If he wanted to marry a south african he would have but he didn't. Personally I think your husband should speak to them about this. Thats what I tell my husband when his parents drive me nuts, even though its long distance.

lamplighter

Thu, Sep 20 2007, 9:40 pm

Im also American married to a SA boy.
My IL are American so they are ok with my "straight" personality. There were times when tehhy thought it was a bit much. theyve never said anyhitng but I felt it. My DH is the one singing my praises, telling them how happy he is, what a good wife I am,standing up for me etc all the time wiht/around them. like it was mentioned before he chose u and he knew where u came from. I say you should speak with him about this. If its a rela issue, he needs to be the one to say soemthing. It could be their jsut being overprotective.
do u live in SA? how often do u have what to do wiht them/are in this sitch?

su7kids

Thu, Sep 20 2007, 9:47 pm

I am an ex South African, married to an ex South African, living in the States, and am really not sure what you're talking about.

Why would you think its a South African thing, rather than just your in laws?

I'm strongly opinionated, and don't mind telling what I feel.

My husband helps around the house, helps with the kids, etc.

Maybe you can try to explain a little bit more why you think its specifically South African.

Did your husband grow up with maids? Did his parents always have help in the house, so they themselves never had to lift a finger?

We did, and yet we both help around the house. Admittedly, I don't like or even know how to do housework, so I hire someone to do cleaning for me, but I don't know why you think "subservient" is where you need to be.

Please try to explain a bit more, I'd be happy to give you all the "South African advice" I can.

klotzkashe

Fri, Sep 21 2007, 12:11 am

my hus band isn't SA but grew up in an area whre nearlyh every Jew is SA'er (in aussie). anyway, he says that w/ sa'ers they all say flowering good positive things and then behind your back they'll rip you to shreds.

so he says you just gotta play their game and not take life so seriously. the thing is that you could be in this huge disagreement w/ a sa'er and if you see him in shule he'll come up to you and wish you good shabbso and tell you you look healthy etc. meanwhile you'r ein this huge fight.

they just want to hear the good - hera that it's all going it's all happy. they don't really want your opinion!

su7kids

Fri, Sep 21 2007, 12:50 am

klotzkashe wrote:

As a South African, I object to the generalization.

South Africans can be very clique-y, because we are close as Jews in that small country, and some people, South African OR NOT can be like that.

I think your husband has to meet more South Africans. We really are not all like that.

amother

Fri, Sep 21 2007, 1:57 am

I am a south african married to an american, and I don't agree with what you say about south africans. South African's are known to be more friendly and warm. I feel that living in NY people can be very unfriendly and look at you the wrong way when you smile and say hello. Also I feel that South Africans are brought up very differently than Americans, they are not fakers, its what you see is what you get. I grew up with a maid in my house, but here I do my own dishes, laundry with the help of my dh, even though I was spoilt growing up having a maid. In every country, there are cliques.It is not nice to generalize. We are a small community and sometimes we feel that we have to stick together since we are not the majority. Smile

Pickle Lady

Fri, Sep 21 2007, 8:57 am

amother wrote:

South African's are known to be more friendly and warm. I feel that living in NY people can be very unfriendly and look at you the wrong way when you smile and say hello.

I visited SA for awhile and I grew up in the a US city chicago and I didn't think that they were an more friendly than average americans. I would say it if it was true because I did really like it there.

amother wrote:

Also I feel that South Africans are brought up very differently than Americans, they are not fakers, its what you see is what you get.

That again is very new york. In other area of the US people are very friendly and on the most part are honest.

I am always reminding my husband of that its NEW YORK not all of the US.

OP amother I think it is just your IL's not the south african way that is the problem. The funny thing is that when I thought about it my FIL doesn't carry a wallet and my MIL handles all family finances, but I think that is just my IL's because my husband does carry a wallet and he is the one that pays the bills.

sacohen

Sun, Sep 23 2007, 2:11 pm

I am south african, still living in south africa. I really don't think that you can judge a whole culture on one family.

EG: I have a friend from ____, who is very controlling, should I say all people from ____ are controlling.

I think your IL's is a personallity problem more than a "south african" one. Most of my friends' DH's and my DH help around the house all the time- and it is not cosidered controlling to ask for the help. (in fact I have one friend who I have never seen change a diaper-nappy as we call in- when her DH is around.

I agree we do tend to ask everyone there opinion before doing things that concern them.

Hope this majes sense. Smile

amother

Sun, Sep 23 2007, 9:36 pm

I am the OP. I've been interested to read everyone's viewpoints, and I apologize if I offended any of you! I agree that just because his family is a certain way, doesn't mean everyone from SA is that way. However, I also feel that you *can* make some generalizations about different cultures, that hold true for the majority of the people in that culture. I mean, about Americans I would say: 1. We value informality. We like to be on a "first-name basis" with people. 2. One of the major values in our general culture is that we like to let people do whatever makes them happy. As long as he's not bothering me, why can't he do whatever he wants? There's tremendous value placed on hedonism and the "pursuit of happiness." 3. Money is a g-d. 4. We value honesty. 5. We value the rebel, the maverick. We create a culture of innovation.

About South Africans I would say: 1. Treating others courteously and respectfully is very important. A person (especially a woman) is judged according to her graciousness. 2. Tradition and following a safe path is extremely important. Being a careful and diligent worker is often more approved of than "thinking outside the box." 3. Children are shielded from adult life longer than kids in America. They are allowed to be children longer. 4. Family is very important. Much effort goes into keeping family ties strong, getting together often, and pretending that everything is okay even if it ch"v isn't. 5. People care a lot about social status.

Do you think I'm way off base?

Of course the things I'm saying are about the general non-Jewish population. But a lot filters into the frum velt.

To sum it up, I would say U.S. culture is self-centered, while South African culture is community-centered.

Now, my problem is that I want to learn how to talk to my in-laws better. But I don't know the rules! I really have tried so many things. I have learned the hard way that when you're a kimpeturin and totally sleep-deprived and stressed and hormonal, you STILL are not supposed to sound too gloomy. You should focus on the positive and not vent how you really feel. Stiff upper lip, I guess. But what else can you SA'ers give me in terms of advice? Specifically:

1. One of the ways I bond with family and friends is by kvetching. Sad but true. embarrassed

So how do you SA'ers bond? What do you talk about all day with your friends and family? What things are okay to kvetch about and which aren't? Is it okay to say anything negative aobut your children?

2. If you have a strong opinion about something--a negative opinion--how do you convey that effectively without coming across as too "strong?" I find that when I speak with SA'ers (NOT just my in-laws), it takes a good ten minutes to get them to really say their true opinion. So if that's what I need to do when talking with my in-laws, tell me how to do it! What do you say to signal you're not crazy about something? How do you let people know what you mean without saying it straight out?

Okay, I know I sound like a moron so I'll stop now!

Pickle Lady

Sun, Sep 23 2007, 9:59 pm

OP I kind of agreat with some of what you say but the family values thing. My family is WAY WAY WAY more stronger than his. My family would move mountains to attend a family simcha while his family wouldn't. His parents haven't seen thier only grandchildren in 3 years and only spoken to them maybe a handful of times and that was from hard hard work on my part. The only thing about SAers that I laugh about is that they stay home till they are married and that doesn't matter if they are even 40 years old at the time. Some of my husbands freinds still live at home and they are in thier late 30's.

amother

Sun, Sep 23 2007, 10:27 pm

South Africans are known to be different to Americans, not just in accent. Our cultures are very different. I find that Americans especially new yorkers are always in a rush an don't stop for a minute unlike the South AFricans who like to take their time.We are braught up in that we should always be polite even if the other person doesn't smile or greet u back. I find that there is no curtesy when it comes to saying please or thank u. I will give an eg. I was in line somewhere and there was no room to move and by mistake I pushed the person in front of me, so I turned to the person in front of me and said sorry for pushing, and the lady told me obviously u are not from here, otherwise u wouldn't of apologised. Also we are extremely family orientated. Family always comes first. But I don't agree that South African children are sheltered more than American children. Maybe Americans are more open in that regard. I also find that I don't see social status is an issue because we live in a society, where it doesn't matter where u live, u still are a person. Yes I agree it might be personality clash with your inlaws but don't generalise. I bh get on extremely well with my american inlaws. Just like u wouldn't like it if, everytime something goes wrong, I blame americans. Very Happy

Pickle Lady

Sun, Sep 23 2007, 11:07 pm

amother wrote:

You viewpoint is very typical of an SAer. My husband used to say all of this until I tore it apart. Espcailly the family oriented thing. Many south africans tell me that I started asking for examples and they couldn't give me any besides american move out of the house younger than them. Americans do value a mother at home with thier children more that an SAer though. It took me alot of time to convience my husband that there is a worth to me mothering my children (fully taking care of them instead of a nanny).Funny thing is that I think americans are more family oriented than SAers espcially my family compared to my husbands. Another thing though that they do get to do is that since the cost of living is very cheap there they can afford yearly vacations and time off that many americans can't afford. My family is convinced that my IL's are rich because they have a house and a maid.

Social status doesn't matter you mentioned in your post. SAers are very rascists compared to americans (the average educated american not jewish NYer's) and it was very hard for me to see the way people treat blacks in SA.

Also my husband made fun of me that I had less of an world education than him and I many times teach him world history. Now he doesn't make fun of me because he realizes that its such garbage that we don't learn world history.

Amother I would be really surpise of that indicent that you had in line happened anywhere else besides NY. I grew up in chicago and people say excuse me.

Why do people base the US on NY. The US is HUGE. People is california are way more calm than NYers you would think they were from another country. Texans are also WAY different than NYers.