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Single girl out with friends until 1AM- is this appropriate?
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sourstix




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 25 2017, 8:23 pm
No no. It's not a sin.

I just find that it's a late hour and at that hour it's safer to be home for a girl especially. Again I am old fashioned when it comes to this.
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 25 2017, 8:42 pm
sourstix wrote:
No no. It's not a sin.

I just find that it's a late hour and at that hour it's safer to be home for a girl especially. Again I am old fashioned when it comes to this.


I totally agree with you about safety. I came of age in an era in which women didn't go out at night even in groups without male escort for fear of being mugged, and I find it alarming that young women today have no qualms about going out late at night.

However, OP expressed zero concern about her daughter's personal safety. Her concern seemed to be entirely for her reputation, and then only because of shidduchim. I find this highly disturbing. A mother's first concern should be for her daughter's safety. A good reputation is no shield against a mugger.

I don't find it inappropriate for a young woman to go out at night with friends. I do consider it inadvisable for reasons of safety. But that's not what OP asked.
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MagentaYenta




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 25 2017, 8:53 pm
sourstix wrote:
No no. It's not a sin.

I just find that it's a late hour and at that hour it's safer to be home for a girl especially. Again I am old fashioned when it comes to this.


I can accept your position, except for the fact that these aren't girls. They are woman, old enough to be married. Hopefully they all have a basic level of street smarts when it comes to navigating their own neighborhoods safely after dark. They are doing some things right, traveling in a group. But as Zaq has just posted, the OPs concern was not safety, she was worried about her DDs reputation.
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Ema of 5




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 25 2017, 9:53 pm
Chayalle wrote:
I wouldn't be comfortable with my single daughter staying out at local eateries so late. I'd be okay with them being at a friend's house, though.

I think it's okay to communicate your concerns with your daughter. However, consider the fact that she is an adult and may have her own opinions. You have to be realistic about who your daughter is, and what your relationship with her is.

I don't think this should be about shidduchim, and what others will see, etc...she should marry someone appropriate to herself, and if this is what she wants, then she should marry someone who is okay with that and on the same page.

What about a 23 year old son?
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Apr 25 2017, 11:43 pm
eema of 3 wrote:
What about a 23 year old son?


What about him?
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Ema of 5




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 26 2017, 7:24 am
zaq wrote:
What about him?

I was responding to chayelles post. She said she wouldn't be comfortable with a single daughter being out late. I asked her what about a single son.
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 26 2017, 7:52 am
Truly I fail to see what difference marital status makes here. If it's a matter of reputation, a good reputation is important to everyone, married or not. Maybe even more important for a married woman. I don't see how frequenting innocuous venues such as coffee shops and pizza parlors has any bearing on a person's reputation unless the shops are known hangouts for people involved in sundry vices.

If I were the type to pay attention to other people's business, I would be more concerned about a married person constantly hanging out with friends late at night in the absence of a spouse. Why isn't this person spending time with his or her spouse? But friends are important and even a married person has the right to enjoy the occasional "ladies' night out" or "guys' night out" . Single people, lacking spouses to cocoon with, even more so. Just not all the time.
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momofqts




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 26 2017, 8:58 am
I understand your concern for the safety of your daughter and not being comfortable with her out at that hour. Your reasoning baffles me. If that's what she enjoys and there's nothing wrong with it, let her be, why stifle her because someone might see her and it will affect her shidduch???? Single (girls) women have a right to enjoy life a little. They dont have to sit at home dressed perfectly waiting for prince charming. I really don't get this whole culture of doing things for a shidduch reputation. Let her live, daven hard and she should find her bashert soon!
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 26 2017, 9:10 am
momofqts wrote:
I understand your concern for the safety of your daughter and not being comfortable with her out at that hour. Your reasoning baffles me. If that's what she enjoys and there's nothing wrong with it, let her be, why stifle her because someone might see her and it will affect her shidduch???? Single (girls) women have a right to enjoy life a little. They dont have to sit at home dressed perfectly waiting for prince charming. I really don't get this whole culture of doing things for a shidduch reputation. Let her live, daven hard and she should find her bashert soon!


See, this is the sort of thing I wish people would tell about shidduchim. Suppose I have a ds who likes going to museums. Or parks. Or coffee shops. Presumably he will be interested in a partner who also likes going to museums, or parks, or coffee shops. If nothing else, this information will give him an idea of what sort of places he should or should not take her on a date. And if she is a girl who doesn't like going anywhere, presumably we should suggest her as a shidduch for ds friend who also doesn't like going anywhere.
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sweetpotato




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 26 2017, 9:17 am
1 am isn't really that late.. with Shabbos ending at 9 or 9:30 in the summer, if you want to go out for a melave malka you're definitely going to be out till midnight or later. And even on a weeknight, 1 am isn't the same as staying out till dawn. Sounds like a normal healthy social life for a young single woman.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 26 2017, 9:30 am
eema of 3 wrote:
What about a 23 year old son?


Same.

Zaq summed up my feelings very well. And like I posted, for me it would be about safety, not about reputation.

There's a certain safety to being home at a certain hour of the night. A pizza place is a public place, akin to the street - not like a private home. Anyone can walk in and out of it. It's not a place I'd want to be at 1 am myself, and I like them safe at home at that hour. Or at a friend's house.

True I don't have kids in their 20's yet - but my sister lived with me before her marriage. At 23, she was very responsible about letting me know where she was, and she wasn't hanging out at public venues at that hour, though she sometimes was out late at a friend of hers (both of them being night owls, and said friend has a baking business and liked company and assistance....)
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 26 2017, 9:38 am
sourstix wrote:
Chayalle I'm totally with you! One thousand percent. I gues my opinion is quite different here. Whatever. Each to their own.

I understand that you can't treat a single girl this way but I still have this thing that at 1am I want my kids in the house. Or in another girls house not in the street.


For heaven's sake, you make it sound like "kosher pizza store" is a synonym for "brothel." She's not "in the street." She's hanging out at a restaurant with friends.
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sourstix




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 26 2017, 10:12 am
Chayalle again you summed up my thoughts exactly. It's about safety.

I don't either go to a pizza shop at 1am and Lakewood is pretty safe.
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amother
Natural


 

Post Wed, Apr 26 2017, 10:34 am
Chayalle wrote:
Same.

Zaq summed up my feelings very well. And like I posted, for me it would be about safety, not about reputation.

There's a certain safety to being home at a certain hour of the night. A pizza place is a public place, akin to the street - not like a private home. Anyone can walk in and out of it. It's not a place I'd want to be at 1 am myself, and I like them safe at home at that hour. Or at a friend's house.

True I don't have kids in their 20's yet - but my sister lived with me before her marriage. At 23, she was very responsible about letting me know where she was, and she wasn't hanging out at public venues at that hour, though she sometimes was out late at a friend of hers (both of them being night owls, and said friend has a baking business and liked company and assistance....)


That's great that your sister was respectful to you and let you know where she was. But living in Lakewood, is there even anywhere open late where the single girls can hang out and chill and have a coffee or ice cream? I'm sure your sister is a very good girl, but would it be wrong if she went out for ice cream with her friends on a motzie shabbos and came home at 1:00? If she told you that's where she was? I understand that you like all your "chicks in the nest" when you go to sleep but would it be wrong of her and her friends to be at a kosher and safe pizza or coffee shop? Just curious and not meaning to offend you.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 26 2017, 10:41 am
amother wrote:
That's great that your sister was respectful to you and let you know where she was. But living in Lakewood, is there even anywhere open late where the single girls can hang out and chill and have a coffee or ice cream? I'm sure your sister is a very good girl, but would it be wrong if she went out for ice cream with her friends on a motzie shabbos and came home at 1:00? If she told you that's where she was? I understand that you like all your "chicks in the nest" when you go to sleep but would it be wrong of her and her friends to be at a kosher and safe pizza or coffee shop? Just curious and not meaning to offend you.


Would it be wrong? Perhaps not. Would I like it? No, I wouldn't.

Someone said on this thread that what young people do nowadays is quite different than 20 years ago....yeah, and that scares me a bit. My oldest is 18, and I'd be nervous if she was out on the town late at night. I'm glad she's not much of a night-owl....

In terms of the shidduch aspect, I'm a really really not into the angle of squeezing someone into a box "for shidduchim". They are not going to be able to stay in that box for the rest of their lives. It will only cause compatibility issues if you try to squeeze them in there.

Someone I'm close to told me that when she dated her husband, her mother did not allow her to wear nail polish. So on the first date, they got into a conversation about things they like to do, and she mentioned she likes going for a manicure, but her mother doesn't like it...he said, tell your mother this boy likes it. On subsequent dates, she presented herself in a way that was true to herself, and he was fine with it...they are grandparents now, very happily married for a long time...
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 26 2017, 10:43 am
Chayalle wrote:
Same.

Zaq summed up my feelings very well. And like I posted, for me it would be about safety, not about reputation.

There's a certain safety to being home at a certain hour of the night. A pizza place is a public place, akin to the street - not like a private home. Anyone can walk in and out of it. It's not a place I'd want to be at 1 am myself, and I like them safe at home at that hour. Or at a friend's house.

True I don't have kids in their 20's yet - but my sister lived with me before her marriage. At 23, she was very responsible about letting me know where she was, and she wasn't hanging out at public venues at that hour, though she sometimes was out late at a friend of hers (both of them being night owls, and said friend has a baking business and liked company and assistance....)


Anyone can walk into a pizza place at 1 pm, too. So I guess you never go to pizza places.

But wait. Anyone can -- and does -- walk into the supermarket. Well, I guess you just get your groceries, and clothes, and everything else delivered.

Have you read about all of the teachers who have molested their students? You homeschool, I presume. Camp is out, of course. Not to mention playgrounds, parks, zoos, etc

You all just huddle around in your living room. Because anywhere else, anyone could walk in.

And you know what? Someone wants to think poorly of you, they will. Out late at a pizza place? Oy. All alone at a female friend's house until all hours of the night? shock
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 26 2017, 10:47 am
Like I said, this is not (for me anyway - I'm not the OP) about what anyone thinks about me or my family. It's about safety.

But yeah, I'll admit, I feel safer during earlier vs. later hours. I do my shopping during the day, and if my family goes out to Pizza, it's not after dark.
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 26 2017, 10:52 am
Chayalle wrote:
Like I said, this is not (for me anyway - I'm not the OP) about what anyone thinks about me or my family. It's about safety.

But yeah, I'll admit, I feel safer during earlier vs. later hours. I do my shopping during the day, and if my family goes out to Pizza, it's not after dark.


But why?

Quote:
Violent crimes occur between 6 A.M. and 6 P.M. in 52.7 percent of cases. Simple assaults occur 57.6 percent of the time during these same hours, as do 42.2 percent of aggravated assaults. Approximately two-thirds (63.2 percent) of rapes/s-xual assaults occur at night. Most property crimes occur during the day, except for motor vehicle theft, which occurs 71.7 percent of the time at night.


https://www.libraryindex.com/p......html

So you're less likely to be raped during the day, but more likely to be assaulted.
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Chayalle




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Apr 26 2017, 10:55 am
Where I live, there have been more violent crimes at night, after dark.
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amother
Natural


 

Post Wed, Apr 26 2017, 12:26 pm
Chayalle wrote:
Where I live, there have been more violent crimes at night, after dark.


Wow, I didn't know there were violent crimes going on in Lakewood at night. I didn't hear. I am just like you Chayalle, I don't like going out at night but I tell my husband where I am going and bring my cell phone and have my eyes and ears open.
So you have a daughter who is 18, is she going to Israel for seminary? Are you concerned with her safety in Israel where the schools do not keep the girls tied to their beds. As much as they say that they watch the girls and have curfews etc etc, the girls do have much more freedom. Or do you trust your daughter that she is now 18 and an adult and will make the right choices and decisions.
Sorry I don't mean to pick on you at all I am just very interested in this conversation. At what point do we treat our children like adults. When do we trust them, when do we let them make decisions about where and when they are going and their bed times?
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