Yom Ha'atzma'ut & Zikaron - one POV

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cheeseaddict

Mon, May 01 2017, 8:41 am

Obviously not speaking for all chareidim here, but I'd like to suggest a more moderate view of the whole issue, and hope that people can try to listen to it rationally - once emotions get involved, the brain turns off and it's basically "offend/be offended", which this is not meant to be, so please don't take it as such.

Eretz Yisrael is inherently the most holy place in the world. This was true under the Romans, the Greeks, the British, the Turks... etc. It is intrinsic to the land and not dependent on the governing powers at the time, so our love for the land is separate from the issue of whomever is ruling it at the time. The difference, IMHO, between charedim and dati leumi in this regard is that DL ideology is that Eretz Yisrael being governed by Jews is part of the geula (kibutz galuyot and autonomy), while charedim just view it as another switch in governing body since Moshiach has not come yet (and therefore it is not considered the geula), as well as the fact that the governing body is not religious or following Halachah in how it governs.
In fact, for some chareidim this government is even worse than being under non-Jewish rule precisely because it is Jews sanctioning chillul Shabbos, intermarriage, questionable conversions... etc. It's like being betrayed by a brother.
Maybe you can understand a little why a chareidi person might not want to celebrate Yom Haatzmaut.
Aside from the above, there is also the opinion that after 1948 and subsequent successes, the IDF became very proud of their achievements and adopted a view of "kochi ve'otzem yadi", leaving Hashem out of the picture. Yom Ha'atzma'ut, to chareidim, hints at autonomy not just from the non-Jews but also from G-d.
It also happens to fall out in the middle of sefirat ha'omer so the music and celebrations at a (halachic) national time of downplaying joy is also awkward.

As for Yom Hazikaron, anyone who isn't quiet publically during the siren is just not a ba'al middot. There are, unfortunately, people like this in every race and ideology, so let's not paint all chareidim by something a minority does.
As for the actual day - to be really honest, most chareidim probably don't appreciate it as they should because most of them have not lost family members in the army. I'll bet most of those who have respect the siren.
Aside from this, we have a (halachic) national day of mourning and it is Tisha b'Av. On that day we mourn everything we lost and all the hardships we have faced and are undergoing due to the galut, including the wars we have had to fight and the people we have lost. The government can add a secular day of mourning to the calendar, but chareidim tend to shy away from secular things (which is a separate discussion).
To those bothered by why chareidim don't say a special tefillah for Israel/the soldiers, the answer is very similar - we do! It is the bracha of Magen Avraham. We say "melech ozer, u'moshia U'MAGEN", and this includes all Jews. I personally don't know of a single chareidi who did not daven specifically for the safety of the soldiers during the recent tzuk eitan.
Anyone who does not pray for the well-being of another Jew, especially one who is putting his life at risk to protect said Jew, is a kfuy tovah and not a baal middot. Again, there are people like this in every group.

Anyone want to (nicely) offer a differing opinion?

PinkFridge

Mon, May 01 2017, 8:50 am

I think you said it well. There's also the problem of Yom Hashoah in Nissan (and not everyone will view the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising in full context, I.e. yes, there were heroics, but one can't get caught up in the "kochi v'otzem yodi"ness that many people do).

As you say, not standing quietly - and one can say Tehillim or daven during this time for the safety and success of the brave chayalim - is just wrong. And there's nothing wrong with reflecting with gratitude on the tremendous bracha we have now of access to E"Y, living among so many Jews, everyone of whom is filled with merits like a pomegranate, while saying Modim on 5 Iyar.

heidi

Mon, May 01 2017, 9:21 am

Today I wrote a scathing email to my chareidi office mates who continued to talk all during the siren. The basic gist was that as an olah, I, Thank G-d don't have relatives or close friends who have died either from terror or as soldiers. However, I do have an appreciation for the sacrifice made by those who have died for this land. And as such, I think everyone, no matter their religious affiliation should shut the h#%l up during the siren.I really have no interest in what people do during the siren, if they want to say tehillim, or think about their dinner plans. Just please, please, please, the minimum token of respect to those that it does mean a great deal to.

oliveoil

Mon, May 01 2017, 9:31 am

cheeseaddict wrote:

In fact, for some chareidim this government is even worse than being under non-Jewish rule

Then perhaps they should move elsewhere.

Iymnok

Mon, May 01 2017, 9:43 am

oliveoil wrote:

Then perhaps they should move elsewhere.

1-This is erects hakodesh.
2- they were here first
3- many chareidim move to eretz Yisroel and refuse citizenship so that they won't be getting money from the "treife medine".
4- just because the country is controlled by Jews who don't value ratzon Hashem and degrade those who do, does not mean that the bnei torah should abandon this holy land to such people.
5- when Lapid tried to make a stricter draft, there was talk about moving the yeshivos to a different country if it ever came to fruition. That moving was because the torah itself was being threatened.
B"H it was unreturned.

oliveoil

Mon, May 01 2017, 9:47 am

Iymnok wrote:

5- when Lapid tried to make a stricter draft, there was talk about moving the yeshivos to a different country if it ever came to fruition. That moving was because the torah itself was being threatened.
B"H it was unreturned.

Seriously? The Torah itself was being threatened? Do you really believe that?

Jewishmom8

Mon, May 01 2017, 9:49 am

heidi wrote:

I think you are right.
I am chareidi. if I was home alone I would pretty much ignore it and do my own thing.
but if I am in public I am quiet and respectful and teach my kids the same thing.
this is a moment of deep pain for many people.
if a person cares about doing Chesed then that means you should try not to hurt people in their own moment of pain.
to me its obvious
I am sad its not that way for many people I know...

smile12345

Mon, May 01 2017, 9:54 am

oliveoil wrote:

Seriously? The Torah itself was being threatened? Do you really believe that?

I wasn't the one you were responding to though yes, I do believe that if army service is obligatory for all Yeshiva students then the Torah is being threatened.

ETA - Just to clarify, that I'm not anti the army and I do think that we owe hakoros hatov to the soldiers for doing their hishtadlus to guard us. In line with this, I have also always heard that the Ponevezh Yeshiva in Bnei Brak erect a flag on their building on Yom Hatzmaut.

Last edited by smile12345 on Mon, May 01 2017, 10:01 am; edited 1 time in total

Jewishmom8

Mon, May 01 2017, 9:56 am

I do not think that the Torah is being threatened.
Torah learning bh is going on in other countries.
nothing in this world is a threat to the Torah.
I think that it was a threat to the Jewish people of Israel.

cheeseaddict

Mon, May 01 2017, 9:58 am

oliveoil wrote:

Then perhaps they should move elsewhere.

This is an emotional and not a rational response.
The laws will be the same whether I live here or not, and I am not encouraging them by being here. The opposite, in fact. The more Torah-observant Jews in Israel (DL or chareidi), the greater the voting power to change the status quo.

Aside from the fact that, as I mentioned in the original post, Eretz Yisrael is holy for us separate from the governing body. It just happens to be that this government's decisions hurt more because they come from a Jew.

DrMom

Mon, May 01 2017, 10:01 am

cheeseaddict wrote:

I am DL and I vote. I think there should be no blanket exemptions for yeshiva students. I think hesder yeshiva is a far superior solution.

PinkFridge

Mon, May 01 2017, 10:07 am

Iymnok wrote:

4- just because the country is controlled by Jews who don't value ratzon Hashem and degrade those who do, does not mean that the bnei torah should abandon this holy land to such people.

I don't live in E"Y and deal with the divides on an immediate basis. I would hope that if I did, and I would live chareidi, I suspect, that my ahavas Yisrael for EVERYONE would come through so loudly and clearly that those who disagree with me would at least have an easier time respecting my choices.

(Iymnok*, I'm not talking to you, don't take it personally.)

*I always read your sn as Lymnok. Now I'm really curious Tongue Out

leah233

Mon, May 01 2017, 10:08 am

I lived in EY for three years, both me and my husband who was learning in Brisk (a very anti-Zionist yeshiva) stood for the sirens.

Those who didn't were similar in mindset, to then Prime Minister Yitzchock Rabin who callously dismissed the settlers concerns about the safety of the Oslo Accords and being uprooted from their homes as "crybabies".

Different places have different nisyonis and in EY the difficulty of understanding the feelings and viewpoints of your ideological opponents along with the attitude that you can and should force them to do what you think is right seems to be a very strong nisiyon. Perhaps because Israelis frequently face decisions that have serious consequences with zero room for margin of error and are frequently under attack they do not develop a sense for empathy or understanding for opponents.

It goes across the board. It isn't limited to Chareidim.

Last edited by leah233 on Mon, May 01 2017, 11:51 am; edited 2 times in total

saw50st8

Mon, May 01 2017, 10:09 am

Iymnok wrote:

Can you clarify the "they" were here first comment? AFAIK, people over the age of 69 are no longer drafted.

saw50st8

Mon, May 01 2017, 10:12 am

cheeseaddict wrote:

To those bothered by why chareidim don't say a special tefillah for Israel/the soldiers, the answer is very similar - we do! It is the bracha of Magen Avraham. We say "melech ozer, u'moshia U'MAGEN", and this includes all Jews. I personally don't know of a single chareidi who did not daven specifically for the safety of the soldiers during the recent tzuk eitan.
Anyone who does not pray for the well-being of another Jew, especially one who is putting his life at risk to protect said Jew, is a kfuy tovah and not a baal middot. Again, there are people like this in every group.

If it's a special tefillah for the Soldiers, why would the tefillah include all Jews? Not all Jews are serving in the army to protect Israel. That's not a dig at Charedim, American, Canadian, South African, European Jews, many women, older people etc aren't in the army protecting the Jewish people. So either it's a catch-all or it's special for the soldiers?

cheeseaddict

Mon, May 01 2017, 10:15 am

smile12345 wrote:

Different topic, but another mistaken belief about chareidim and the army (that even some chareidim don't realize) - chareidim are against mandatory conscription for ANY frum Jew, not just yeshiva students.
This is not because of the whole "every boy should be learning" debate, but because basically you are taking a very young man away from his family and support system, sticking him in an environment that is very often contradictory (and detrimental) to the way he has been raised until now, and this is the major one - putting him under the control of people who have no respect for the religious way of life, without his having any option to refuse an order without serious consequences.

We see this today with soldiers who cannot leave a concert when women are singing, chareidi soldiers forced to remove their beards, problems with the kashrus of food, with mixed units or women around even the chareidi units... etc. Even the DL rabbis have issues with this, they were just more optimistic in the beginning.

treestump

Mon, May 01 2017, 10:18 am

Interesting to see your perspective. Thanks for sharing.

From my perspective, chareidi people have a lot of power in the government. Which bothers me a lot because I feel like a lot of freedoms are being restricted and that Israel is a theocracy with a touch of democracy. Separation of church and state is essential in any democracy, and I really hope Israel never turns into a Jewish Iran.

"In fact, for some chareidim this government is even worse than being under non-Jewish rule precisely because it is Jews sanctioning chillul Shabbos, intermarriage, questionable conversions... etc."

Idk, I keep hearing complaints from secular and non Jewish people how they can't buy anything on Shabbos, there are no buses running.... Stores which were open got heavily fined. The government actually made chilul shabbos illegal.
Intermarriage - again, there are no civil ceremonies accepted in Israel... you need a rabbi or minster to conduct your ceremony. So the government definitely does not sanction intermarriage. And if they make it illegal, whatever democracy is left would be destroyed. Questionable conversions- I don't get this either. The rabbinut in Israel controls this, and they have insane measures re conversions, even rejecting Orthodox conversion. So where exactly are they sanctioning questionable conversions?

Basically, I don't understand the victim mentality since chareidi people have so much strength and representation in the government. If you can clarify, I'd appreciate that.

treestump

Mon, May 01 2017, 10:28 am

cheeseaddict wrote:

So if there was a mehadrin unit, with total gender segregation, run with all the halachos and chumros chareidi rabbonim would require to call it a halachakly okay unit, with time for daily learning and minyan, would all chareidi boys enroll in the army then?

Jewishmom8

Mon, May 01 2017, 10:30 am

if rav shteinaman or our gadol hador at that time told my boys to go they would go.

Jewishmom8

Mon, May 01 2017, 10:31 am

I also think it would depend who was in charge of them and calling the shots on a daily basis.
and if the rules were possible to change.

treestump wrote:

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