Yom Ha'atzma'ut & Zikaron - one POV

water_bear88

Mon, May 01 2017, 1:28 pm

cheeseaddict wrote:

Except that we would be literally throwing these kids to the wolves on the chance that when we have to take a public stance (because now we have our boys in there), our opinion may or may not be taken into account.
The DL camp has a right to an opinion as your boys are not only in the IDF, but the elite. And yet your opinion is not taken into account too often. In fact, they are doing their best to make sure religious soldiers cannot enter officer's courses or move up in the army. Why would they treat chareidim any differently?

Aside from this, such a move would also open the door to have everyone enlist while the army makes no promises (or even if it does) about what will happen once they do Think about all the promises to the chareidi units, to Gush Katif, to every settlement that was "voluntarily" dismantled. I give you an inch and you take a mile mentality. Which, BTW, is the real reason why there are such extremes on both sides. It's because no one will budge an inch because the other side will take full advantage of it and use it as a gateway to bigger things.

Well, I can agree with your last two sentences at any rate. Sad

cheeseaddict

Mon, May 01 2017, 1:34 pm

amother wrote:

Continuing ... not only is it illegal for anyone (Jew, Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Baha'I, Taoist or anyone else) to marry other than in a religious ceremony, it is a criminal offense for Jews in Israel to marry in weddings performed outside the state’s religious authority, and doing so can result in a jail sentence of up to two years.

AND marriages can only be performed under Orthodox rules.

What of those people who cannot prove that they are Jewish to the satisfaction of the Charedi Rabbinate? Tough luck to them.

Just to offer the flip-side:

It's also sad when a woman is an agunah because her husband can marry civilly and sees no reason to grant her a religious get.
Also when a young man or woman becomes religious and finds out that they can't marry anyone because their mother married the second time without a get and they are now a mamzer.
Or when you go to sign up at the rabbanut for marriage only to find out that your mother wasn't converted properly (according to the rabbis whom you now follow) and you are not a Jew.

I hear that it's hard and seems unfair but it's also a protective measure, not just arbitrary rules being enforced.

cheeseaddict

Mon, May 01 2017, 1:39 pm

amother wrote:

Even if I bought all your arguments, and I don't, so what? Imagine that after 120, the things you have to apologize for are that you thanked Hashem for restoring Jewish sovereignty to Israel, and that you davened for the welfare of other Jews.

No-one is saying that it's a bad thing to do, just that there is a reason why it isn't done.
Doing something nice isn't obligatory - it's nice.
And if you have an ideological reason (correct or not) for why not to do it, then why would you?

I have never heard anyone say that those people who recites these brachot are going to burn in the fires of gehenom. I've heard that said about wig wearers (most of chareidi Judaism), but not about these tefillot. So if you want to say it, go right ahead. For those who were wondering why it's not said in chareidi circle, I offered my opinion.

moonstone

Mon, May 01 2017, 2:02 pm

cheeseaddict wrote:

It's a prayer for every Jew.
We all need protection.
Rationally, why does that not sit well with you? (I mean this is a curious, not snarky, way)

There are policemen and firemen and security gurads who risk their lives for us daily, but we don't say a special prayer for them out of hakarat tov.
There are doctors who save lives every day, but we don't say a special prayer for them out of hakarat tov.
There are teachers who shape lives every day, but we don't say a special prayer for them out of hakarat hatov.
There are volunteers and parents and millions of people who should get a special prayer and are included in this prayer.

As an aside, why don't we have a special prayer for the policemen and firemen and security guards who guard our schools and shuls even in diaspora? Because it's their job?
I'd like to point out that the IDF has mandatory conscription, which means that many of our fine soldiers would have skipped it in favor of college or travelling or even working. Most soldiers are in the army because they don't have a choice and because what you did in the army will affect every avenue of your social/professional life in Israel. Not out of idealism, unfortunately.

Hashem should protect us all and help us understand the "other side" and allow us to look past ideologies and differences and to remain nice in our interaction with others...

You're right, maybe there should be prayers for all those other professions, but there aren't. There IS a prayer for the soldiers who risk their lives so all of us can live here safely. Why the need to twist yourself into a knot to avoid saying a prayer for the soldiers? It really disgusts and offends me. None of your arguments changes the fact that you are essentially spitting in the face of people who are doing what are the most important, essential jobs for the safety and very existence of this country.

And who gives a ***** that army service is mandatory and that most guys don't want to do it? What difference does that make? You think THAT justifies your disdain for them? If anything, it makes me appreciate these guys more. Instead of going to college or traveling or doing what they want to do, they do the best they can (the majority of them, at least) to keep this country and everyone in it safe even though they'd rather be somewhere else.

I was actually hoping no one would bring up this topic this year, because it makes me so very angry.

moonstone

Mon, May 01 2017, 2:11 pm

treestump wrote:

So if there was a mehadrin unit, with total gender segregation, run with all the halachos and chumros chareidi rabbonim would require to call it a halachakly okay unit, with time for daily learning and minyan, would all chareidi boys enroll in the army then?

I don't believe for one minute that they would. They'd still find excuse after excuse to avoid army service. Because that's all their arguments are: excuses. They've gotten away with not having to do it all these years, and they certainly don't want to start getting their hands dirty now. In a way you can't even blame them-who'd want to serve in the army if they didn't have to? But when I think about the fact that my boys and all the other boys I know have to risk their lives or put their lives on hold- and for a longer time to make up for all the chareidi who don't serve- it makes me livid. If only someone could go back in time and keep Ben Gurion from making that horrible mistake.

water_bear88

Mon, May 01 2017, 2:11 pm

cheeseaddict wrote:

This is exactly why we need legal civil unions. It's bad enough when an individual masquerading as religious refuses his wife a get, but why should we as a society encourage non-religious to get married in a religious ceremony? It's no wonder a man who doesn't believe in G-d to begin with doesn't care if his wife has future children who are mamzerim. So let two consenting adults (I'm not assuming they want anything from each other in the bedroom; I'm cool religiously with 2 37-year-old women who want to be mothers before it's too late but want each other as support) sign a standardized contract that gives them the inheritance and other legal rights married couples enjoy. But don't encourage them to form a religious bond if they're not planning to live it in a religious state of marriage and if necessary dissolve it in a religious manner.

treestump

Mon, May 01 2017, 2:27 pm

cheeseaddict wrote:

Also, why is religious coercion awful, but secular coercion is A-Okay?
It's not okay for me to want you to live your life the way I believe is best, but it's okay for you to force me to live how you believe is best?
What the actual ideology is, is secondary. Can we please recognize how silly this concept is?

You = general you.

Please explain what secular coercion you're referring to.

How are secular people trying to force you to live according to their beliefs?

As for media-induced vitriol - I don't read the Israeli newspapers, actually. But I live here and these are my opinions and questions based on what I observe and see.

cheeseaddict

Mon, May 01 2017, 2:37 pm

water_bear88 wrote:

Great point! I've never thought of it this way.
That's why I love these discussions (before they deteriorate) Smile

cheeseaddict

Mon, May 01 2017, 2:48 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

I may be missing something but who is being protected?

As an American I find this governmental control of something as fundamental as the freedom to worship, or not to worship a bit oppressive.

It is protecting Jewish continuity and halachic status.
Kiddushin and gittin determine the status of a Jew and who he can and cannot marry (sometimes for several generations).
You may not agree with it, but that's Halacha.

I find it no less oppressive when a country decides to ban shechita or metzitza b'peh or even kippas and burkas. Why is that governmental control any different?

cheeseaddict

Mon, May 01 2017, 2:53 pm

treestump wrote:

In America - secular coercion is mandatory teaching of evolution, fines or jail terms for religious people (not just Jews) who refuse to service a marriage contradictory to their beliefs, forcing religious employers to provide contraceptives as part of the health-package... etc.

water_bear88

Mon, May 01 2017, 2:56 pm

cheeseaddict wrote:

Great point! I've never thought of it this way.
That's why I love these discussions (before they deteriorate) Smile

I love them for the same reason Smile

(And for what it's worth on the Hallel topic, I get the argument that it isn't a complete geula, and regardless of what I hold, I don't care if an individual says Hallel with or without a bracha or just says perek kuf-zayin or even just has extra kavana in their Psukei D'zimra in the morning. Thank Hashem in your own way.)

cheeseaddict

Mon, May 01 2017, 2:57 pm

moonstone wrote:

You are inferring something that just isn't there.
Where did I say or even hint at disdain?
My father and uncles were all in the army. Many of my cousins are in the army (some as secular Israelis, many in hesder and two in a chareidi unit).
I am not twisting myself in a knot NOT to say something, just not adding to what already exists. Why is that such a big deal?

cheeseaddict

Mon, May 01 2017, 3:01 pm

sequoia wrote:

More facts:

No clergyperson is forced to officiate a marriage contrary to their beliefs.

No private school is forced to teach evolution or anything else.

Not true. I know this because my husband is in chinuch and the science thing is a big deal.
Also, although clergymen may be exempt, several religious Christians who would not provide servicres such as wedding cakes or flowers were sued and threatened with jail time.

amother

Wine

Mon, May 01 2017, 3:19 pm

cheeseaddict wrote:

BUSINESSES must provide services without discrimination. The bakery can't kick you out because you're a dirty Jew, and if they're offering their services to the public, they can't refuse to bake a cake for you because you're gay. That has nothing to do with RELIGIOUS leaders performing ceremonies. Your rabbi cannot be forced to marry a Jew and a non-Jew, and cannot be forced to marry two gay Jews.

And many non-public schools (regrettably) do not teach evolution.

MagentaYenta

Mon, May 01 2017, 3:26 pm

cheeseaddict wrote:

You are woefully in error and I would appreciate you cite just where business owners were threatened with jail if they did not comply with public accommodation laws. (The bakers in OR were threatened with contempt of court, which is a hand slap and a night in jail for their personal behaviors both inside and outside of court, as well as violating a judge's instructions.)

ETA: These same public accommodation laws protect me from discrimination as a woman and as a Jew.

I will also add that our federal marriage equality law here in the US, protects clergy when they refuse to marry someone. They are fully protected from these types of lawsuits.

amother

Brunette

Mon, May 01 2017, 6:04 pm

cheeseaddict wrote:

Just to offer the flip-side:

It's also sad when a woman is an agunah because her husband can marry civilly and sees no reason to grant her a religious get.
Also when a young man or woman becomes religious and finds out that they can't marry anyone because their mother married the second time without a get and they are now a mamzer.

I hear that it's hard and seems unfair but it's also a protective measure, not just arbitrary rules being enforced.

Side point: being frum often doesn't stop men from denying his ex a get, so I'd love to know what the protective measures for an aguna are.