Does everything happen for a reason?

PinkFridge

Mon, May 01 2017, 12:02 pm

No way am I going to hijack FF's thread on Emotional Health.
But someone posted the following article.
http://www.timjlawrence.com/bl.....eason

There is a lot in it that's excellent, particularly, what to tell someone else who's suffering. However there are things that we should tell ourselves, at the right time. It can take time to get there, but we need to be able to tell ourselves that yes, everything happens for a reason.

The following is a very kosher thought:
Some things in life cannot be fixed. They can only be carried.
Why do I call it kosher? Because not every challenge is a nisayon for us to grow from. (See all discussion of nisayon at the beginning of Lech Lecha for the classic understanding of nisayon.) Sometimes we are in a situation that we are not to grow from, but to endure. And yes, hopefully grow from, but these challenges aren't nisyonos. They may be opportunities for us to earn extra sechar in this world, there are all sorts of possibilities. Find kosher outlets that explain why bad things happen to good people. Read Making Sense of Suffering by Rav Yitzchak Kirzner, zt"l. As the author rights, some things are just to be carried.

But what he calls "myths" and "platitudes" are our most deeply-held truths. Even if they are totally inappropriate to tell another person who is suffering (again, that section of his article is excellent) chas v'shalom that we lose sight of the fact that there is Someone coordinating everything for a reason, even if we won't ever fathom the reason in this world.

amother

Saddlebrown

Mon, May 01 2017, 12:59 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

[u]

But is this valuable? To say that everything happens for a reason even if it seems to make no sense to us, what can we truly take from that? I guess it's blind faith. In an extreme example, should we say that the holocaust was really a good thing because if it wasn't then hashem wouldn't have allowed it to happen. Can we really be honest and look at it that way? I don't think I can. It's against human nature to accept suffering and when it c'vs happens we daven and beg hashem to change things. How can we then say that suffering must be good because hashem allowed it to happen?

Iymnok

Mon, May 01 2017, 1:10 pm

Gam zu l'tovah is a very high level that takes a massive amount of inner work to attain. But it still holds true.
The holocaust has definitely been for our benefit. Some can only see the pain in it while others are able to look at the entire picture and see at least a glimpse of Hashem's plan.
Was the expulsion from Spain good?
As I've heard quoted from a gabolbut forget who, "What would you do if you were G-d?
Exactly the same thing"
That's part of tefilla, a bad gezeirah can be overturned. A good one can't.

martina

Mon, May 01 2017, 1:22 pm

Yes.
Otherwise it wouldn't have happened.
אני מאמין
באמונה שלימה. שהבורא יתברך שמו הוא בורא ומנהיג
לכל הברואים, והוא לבדו עשה ועושה ויעשה לכל המעשים

ETA: this is not coming from someone who has an "easy" life and &ust spouts words without understanding the pain of suffering. since I am not quoting as amother I cannot list the hardships I go through where I could sometimes really feel like there is no point etc. But the fact is that it's this truth, the emuna of knowing that He Upon High is causing it all and all for a reason I do not (need to) know that I can keep strong.

wondergirl

Mon, May 01 2017, 1:51 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

Its interesting that when we are Menachem Avel someone, we dont say that "everything happens for a reason" to comfort the avel. Instead we say HaMakom yenachem et'chem b'toch shar avay'lay Tzion vee'Yerushalayim- May the Omnipresent comfort you among the mourners of Zion and Jerusalem.
Aish.com explains why we say HaMakom yenachom instead of "everything happens for a reason" and they seem agree with the above mentioned article that time does not heal all wounds-- http://www.aish.com/jl/l/dam/48961211.html

This is another article from Aish.com that covers mourning the death of a loved one but it could apply in other situations as well-- http://www.aish.com/48962221.html

martina

Mon, May 01 2017, 1:58 pm

wondergirl wrote:

True but I don't thing one negates the other.
To believe everything happens for a reason is something a person must believe and work on THEMSELVES.
To bring comfort to someone in pain is what we do for others.
Never tell someone suffering "it's happenning for a reason"
And never fall into dispair out of self-pity by feeling sorry for ourselves when we have hardships.

And yet both are true. Hashem causes all that happens and He has a cheshbon for eveything why He causes it. And He too has the power to comfort those He brought hardships on. Maybe BECAUSE He did it (with a reason) and not in spite of it.

wondergirl

Mon, May 01 2017, 2:20 pm

martina wrote:

The bolded sentence feels like victim blaming. Sure, we won't tell you to "get over it" or that "everything happens for a reason" but we dont want you to "fall into despair out of self pity by feeling sorry for yourself" either. But it all seems like the same thing, you are basically saying "get over it" just using different terminology. So is there a time limit to "get over it" and stop grieving? If not, then how would you know if the person is still grieving as opposed to just "feeling sorry for herself"?

martina

Mon, May 01 2017, 2:39 pm

wondergirl wrote:

Not at all. I mean how a person in a difficult situation can help themsepves so not to fall apart. I had and have every reason to have fallen in the darkest deepest abiss or lost my sanity a million times over from what I have been through and go through. And the times that almost happennned were the times I was drowning in delf pity. The moment I pulled myself together was the moment I became strong. My mentors, therapist, rabbi, a gadol, my childrens therapist, my lawyer, my family and friends all say how anyone in my shoes would be off the deep end. And I am not because I believe. However horrible and indescribable the traumas and pain. I was and am meant to go through it.
No one is telling anyone to get over anthing.
To the contrary. Always be a shoulder and comforter. NEVER be a " know it all" or "mussar giver" anyone like that must and should be cut off from your my life.
I was just saying how in my opinion and my experience the knowledge and comfort of knowing that Hashem causes it and only He "knows" why, is what helps me keep strong and hoping and believing for a better tomorrow.
This was me talking to myself.
I am the last person to tell others how to handle their pain.

zaq

Mon, May 01 2017, 3:03 pm

sequoia wrote:

I think people who talk in such a manner are subconsciously referring to mortal illness, genetic disability, fire, flood, and other "acts of God."

You would have to be a monster to believe that "everything happens for a reason" applies to child rape. Elder abuse. Female genital mutilation. Kids who are kept in basements, tortured, and killed without ever being rescued.

Happening for a reason does not mean "because of something bad the victim did". Read the Book of Job. His friends tried to persuade him that his troubles must have been sent as punishment for some unacknowledged fault of his. He maintained his innocence, and he was right. He had done nothing wrong. His troubles were sent to test his faith, not to punish him for wrongdoing.

There are many reasons that have nothing to do with punishment. To test your faith or to test someone else's. To make you stronger. To teach you something. To bring people together. To make you a catalyst for change in others. To inspire you to change yourself. The list goes on.

amother

Sapphire

Mon, May 01 2017, 3:08 pm

sequoia wrote:

But dead kids CAN'T do any of those things. They can't grow. They can't overcome. They're dead.

If your seven years on this earth were spent in rape, torture, and eventual murder, what is "the reason"? For the dead child, not for anyone around her.

Good question. I am anxiously awaiting Moshiach so I can hear the answer. And even though I can't fathom any good answer now, I trust there is one.

wondergirl

Mon, May 01 2017, 3:13 pm

martina wrote:

How do you know that it was self pity rather than grief? Why is it so terrible to fall apart? Maybe you were meant to fall apart instead of pulling yourself together and you are still going through things until you fall apart so how do you know for sure that pulling yourself together was the right thing to do? What do you think would happen if you allow yourself to fall apart completely?

wondergirl

Mon, May 01 2017, 3:18 pm

zaq wrote:

What if it kills you? What if it breaks you? What about all the people who have committed suicide bc they couldnt handle the pain they were in? Do these things happen for a reason as well or did G-d make a mistake in cases with negative outcomes?

FranticFrummie

Mon, May 01 2017, 3:18 pm

First of all, thank you for not hijacking my thread. Your sensitivity means a lot to me.

I found the article interesting. I could agree with half of it. I do think that everything happens for a reason, but that does not mean that I'm not allowed to grieve, either. The two are not mutually exclusive.

The Talmud says that we should accept the good and the bad with equal joy, because both are sent for our own development and benefit. I am not on that level, but that doesn't mean that the Talmud is wrong. It's something to aspire to. If you did enough research, you might be able to count on one had the number of great tzaddikim who ever reached that stage, and that would be based mostly on stories from their followers.

In the terms of secular psychoanalysts, you could say that my "personal mythology" is that G-d runs the world, and wants only the best for me. If at 120, if I do find out that it was just a "myth", I would have no regrets, because it is a belief that makes my life livable.

If religion and faith are the opiates of the masses (Marx), then when I am in pain, I'll be the first in line to roll up my sleeve. If I have a broken leg, I'll take the crutch, thankyouverymuch.

There is no way I can sit down and logically prove to an atheist that anything I'm saying is true, but in no way does that make it untrue, either. I'm totally OK with that. Part of being mature, is learning how to be OK with internal inconsistency, and being honest about it.

(I'm a Gemini, so I see both sides of everything, and my moon is in Libra, so I weigh all the balances. I tell people I'm "consistently inconsistent". I'm also bipolar, so there's that. LOL

)

Last edited by FranticFrummie on Mon, May 01 2017, 3:22 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Ginger

Mon, May 01 2017, 3:21 pm

zaq wrote:

Sefer Iyyov ends with Hashem saying: I created the universe, you didn't, so stop complaining. There's nothing there about trying to make Iyyov a better person through his suffering.