It's so frustrating when other people get upset at us

amother

Papaya

Tue, May 02 2017, 7:19 pm

In life, sometimes there are disagreements. For example, when we left our previous apartment, the landlords wanted to charge us to have a cleaning woman clean the house -nowhere in the lease did it mention such a thing- as well as charge us for half the month, when we were asked to leave by the fifth of the month. (They asked us to be out by the fifth but want is to pay u till the 15th because they claim that's the local practice.)
And now they're upset and calling us "not mentshlich" for arguing with them about that (and going to beis din).

Then we had to cancel on a service from a Jewish serviceman who is a friend of my parents' (I posted about this earlier) because they kept pushing off when they can do installation, and I need the items installed ASAP due to many reasons. Now they are upset and feel we cheated them because they scheduled their workers to come do it (I was never informed that it was officially scheduled until after we booked with another serviceman.)
It's so frustrating when I'm trying to do the right thing but not get taken advantage of, and also look out for myself and what's convenient for my life. End of vent.

amother

Papaya

Tue, May 02 2017, 7:42 pm

das wrote:

When you leave an apartment, every part of it should be washed down. The bathroom should be disinfected. Everything should be spotless. That is basic etiquette. Vaccuming the place and not leaving stuff on the floor doesn't cut it. If it wasn't left clean, obviously the landlord wanted you to pay to have it cleaned.

I'm very surprised leaving it clean was not in your lease. It's standard.

Point is, it was not in the lease.
In past apartments, the landlord had a cleaning crew come in.

MagentaYenta

Tue, May 02 2017, 7:43 pm

amother wrote:

It wasn't spotless (shiny floors), but we vacuumed and there was no mess.

The written leases for the units I live in and watch over explains cleaning costs. When I meet with prospective renters and walk through the lease with them I explain that if the unit isn't cleaned (walls washed etc) I will clean it myself and charge the going rate of $20 an hour. I also explain to them I'm old and slow.

Your attitude is unconscionable.

amother

Papaya

Tue, May 02 2017, 7:51 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

Huh? What is the problem here? There was NO mention of it in the lease. All it said was that if there was anything beyond normal wear and tear, we would have to pay. Nowhere did it say we have to leave it spotless or hire a cleaning crew!
If it wasn't in the lease, why on earth would I have to pay?

amother

Cyan

Tue, May 02 2017, 7:56 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

Depends on your locale. NYC is tenant-friendly. For instance, tenants are not expected to repaint after they move out. They're not expected to buy their own utilities.

Leases usually require property be left in "broom clean" condition. Why should the former tenant hire a cleaning crew when the premises will likely create a new mess from painting and renovations?

Whether or not OP should pay for a cleaning crew in this particular case, I think depends on how "broom clean" she's leaving it.

MagentaYenta

Tue, May 02 2017, 7:57 pm

amother wrote:

I never said you should pay but I will maintain that your unwillingness to clean simply because it wasn't put in writing is unconscionable.

amother

Bronze

Tue, May 02 2017, 7:57 pm

amother wrote:

I don't think it really matters if it was in the lease. Be a Mentch and leave it the way u got it- clean and ready to move in.

amother

Indigo

Tue, May 02 2017, 8:01 pm

In my area, tenant is expected to leave the house generally clean. That does not mean scrubbing and disinfecting the bathroom. That does not include wiping the walls. It means broom clean. The landlord gets a cleaning crew that they pay for, before showing to prospective tenants.

It could be the same in OP's community. If it wasn't written in the contract, it cannot be demanded of her.

As for paying rent to the 15. If landlord is kicking you out by a specific date then the tenant pays till the date they move. However, if tenant is leaving on their own, then depending on the contract, they will pay till the end of the month, for 30 days, or for 2 weeks (time for landlord to clean and touch up the place for a new tenant).

sourstix

Tue, May 02 2017, 8:15 pm

It all depends what it says in the contract. But why can't you make a decent cleanup? If the walls are scribbled, you should get it cleaned. I had a tenant who left crayon marks and pen marks and I was very upset. I had to scrub it to show another tenant a decent looking apartment. They left all kinds of stuff I had to clean out. And I didn't have the funds to hire a cleaning crew so I did it myself.

I am speaking from the side of a landlord. You really should go in and do some cleaning it's not menchlich to leave an apartment like this.

It will only give you a good name that follows you later on. People think they just do like you and don't lose out. Let me tell you your menchlichkeiet follows you. And I'm speaking of experience.

MagentaYenta

Tue, May 02 2017, 8:32 pm

amother wrote:

Actually I have family in the rental bus. in NYC and NJ. None of them go for the 'broom' clean. They have expectations of their renters, none are expected to paint. As to utilities, it depends on the age and the building. Newer buildings come with their own utility meters. Older conversions don't have them. It's just another reason why rents can be so unreasonable in NYC and NJ, when property owners cover the utility costs for their renters. Water, sewer, and power costs for a family of four are not inexpensive.

Fox

Tue, May 02 2017, 8:53 pm

amother wrote:

I've been both a tenant and landlord in Chicago, and "broom clean" was always the standard. There was usually a walk-through after move-out in order to assess any charges to the security deposit, but deep cleaning by a cleaning crew was the responsibility of the landlord. In fact, I recall one landlord telling me not to bother cleaning up too thoroughly since he would have a crew in the next day.

But to answer the OP's larger question, I think it's a matter of feeling confident that you've fully considered all the angles and that your decision is a fair one.

We could argue endlessly about whether you should/shouldn't be required to pay for a cleaning crew -- as everyone says, it varies by location and condition of the premises.

The right thing to do in these situations is to ask for some time -- a day or so at most -- to investigate and make a decision. You can call around, maybe even send pictures, to property owners you know or can contact. Ask them if they are aware of such a practice where you live and/or if the apartment is genuinely dirty enough that the landlord is justified. Same with the utilities.

Once you are comfortable with the facts, you can decide how much it's worth to avoid machlokes or accommodate other people's schedules.

Unfortunately, a lot of people subscribe to the "if you don't ask, you won't get" philosophy. However, they ramp it up a notch if they're not immediately successful, claiming that you're not being a mentch, etc. Don't play that game. You can be fair and compassionate without abandoning all reason.

If you've fairly ascertained the common practices in your community, simply answer, "I appreciate your desire to have the apartment cleaned, but I have contacted four local landlords, shown them pictures, and asked them about their practices. None charges for post-move-out cleaning unless specific damage has been noted." Or, "I understand that you do an excellent job on kitchen installation, and I wish we could have used your services. However, you weren't able to accommodate our preferred slot or even any of three alternatives. I'm glad that you're busy, but I needed the work done no later than X." Rinse and repeat.

amother

Papaya

Wed, May 03 2017, 4:35 am

Thank you. I'm glad to see that I'm not crazy- for a minute there I thought I was going crazy. I never heard of ring demanded to do something that wasn't put in the lease. There should be no "expectations." Everything should be written down!

We left it broom clean. No scribbles on the wall either, sourstix.

We asked a rav in all these cases. It's just frustrating that their viewing us as the bad guys instead of just acknowledging that while it may frustrating to lose some money on our account (losing the business the serviceman hoped we'd give him / losing out on a full 15 days of rent) we aren't bad guys, we're just also looking out for ourselves, just like they're looking out for themselves.

This landlord told me she wanted me out by day 5, but I have to pay till day 15. How does that even make sense to her logically? Scratching Head

Seems from our experience that's it's more pleasant to deal with a real estate company/ bigger landlord (a company with lots of properties who owns apartment buildings) rather than single homeowners looking to squeeze every penny out of us so they can pay their mortgage (maybe they should have thought of a better way of affording mortgage than counting on tenants...)

amother

Violet

Wed, May 03 2017, 5:07 am

"We asked a rav in all these cases. It's just frustrating that their viewing us as the bad guys instead of just acknowledging that while it may frustrating to lose some money on our account (losing the business the serviceman hoped we'd give him / losing out on a full 15 days of rent) we aren't bad guys, we're just also looking out for ourselves, just like they're looking out for themselves"

I understand that you feel frustrated. However,
If you have nothing to feel guilty about then move on. Welcome to life. There will always be 2 sides of the story, 2 different opinions, 2 different expectations.......
It could be on a large or small scale.
You will have neighbors that think your parenting or burrowing habits arent mentchlach- and for you that may be the norm.
Be proud of who you are and what you do, -and dont let it weigh you down if you truly think that your acting in a Halachacially correct and mentchlach way.
Good luck!!

amother

Cyan

Wed, May 03 2017, 5:25 am

MagentaYenta wrote:

Re utilities, I actually meant, buy their own washer, dryer, fridge, etc. In some places the tenant is expected to do so, and he brings them along with him when he moves. I don't disagree with you re renting in NYC and NJ, but it can also flip the other way.

amother

Cyan

Wed, May 03 2017, 5:26 am

amother wrote:

Don't, just pro-rate it

amother

Mint

Wed, May 03 2017, 7:24 am

As a recent tenant and current landlord, I think you're in the right. As a landlord, I'm just happy when my tenants don't break or destroy things, pay on time and don't cause problems for neighbours or myself. Landlords like her give all of us a bad name. I always avoided moving into apartments in the same building as the landlord because I had met or dealt with so many crazy, overly picky or unreasonable people.

I get that it's hard not to feel possessive of your building, especially when you also live there. I just did a bathroom and kitchen reno in an apartment and cringe every time I go in and see a mess, because the tenant we got ended up not caring as much about those nice new cupboards and shiny fixtures as we did. But thankfully he's leaving and I'll just be happy if nothing's broken... I will happily clean up after him. And he was an anomaly, I've ended up with mostly very respectful and tidy people and appreciated them greatly.

I have found that generally just ignoring the crazy is the best way to go forward. Just do what you were going to do (broom clean, pay until the 5th) and ignore her protestations. If you're worried she won't give you back your last month's rent, document everything (pictures of apartment, conversations) and let her know you'll be happy to go to your city's rental board if she doesn't give it back. She is in the wrong and will either find that out, or realize you won't be bullied.

amother

Sapphire

Wed, May 03 2017, 8:06 am

OP I get it. We recently moved as the landlord wasn't fixing things and it was getting too small for us. Technically we could have taken them to court over it as the "fixing things" were health hazards. We were told that normal wear and tear is ok, damage isn't. We left it super clean (toilets scrubbed etc) but the flooring was gross in certain places... Carpets get worn out after a few years with multiple kids! With a little pushback the landlord agreed to give it back to us. Guess they didn't want us to sue over the hazards... (We didn't threaten but we mentioned the issues- you can't take off for the paint around X because you need to fix it anyways before you can rent out again). We knew they were going to put in wood instead of carpets as they did to all other units for rent.