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Forum -> Children's Health -> Toilet Training
Toilet training 4 yr old... at wits end...
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amother
Hotpink


 

Post Sun, May 14 2017, 1:15 am
I am attempting to toilet train my 4 yr old boy again. I have lost count of how many times I have tried but I started at the end of last summer vacation and have had literally no luck. When he went back to school I. September he was not ready to be in school in underwear so he has been wearing pull ups...

Tried again winter vacation and sent him to school in underwear for a while he seemed to be doing better but after a few weeks it was so bad that I put him back in pull ups/diapers (for night)
He is now 4 and I really want to Crack this. Pull ups are so expensive and I'm expecting number 4 IY"H September and have a toddler under him too and just want to have him in underwear already!

The biggest problems are he never ever tells me he needs to go so all the times he has been in underwear when we at home and the teachers are on top of it he stays dry the second we forget to remind him he has an accident... I just don't get why he won't tell me? Has anyone else had this and can advise what worked for your child to finally tell you?

The second problem is even though he can stay dry if we remind him enough he has never ever made number 2 on the toilet. He sits and claims he is trying but it won't come and then soon after will do it in his diaper or underwear. When I had him in underwear most of the time he did it in his diaper in the morning before he got dressed or in his underwear when he came home in the late afternoon... so luckily was rarely an issue for teachers to deal with but oh so frustrating for me.
He couldn't care less about it being in his diaper or underwear and lies to me when I ask if he has a dirty diaper and does not have a problem sitting in it for a while...

Anyone else been through this and can give me advice and or chizzuk?? I'm getting pretty desperate here. We tried again this week bc we ran out of pull ups and still the same story...

Tried everything he has a big prize waiting in full view on top of the China closet which he really wants. Tried a potty watch which worked for a couple weeks untill he got frustrated with it and stopped wearing it...
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amother
Teal


 

Post Sun, May 14 2017, 1:24 am
Maybe he doesn't recognize the feeling of needing to go. Does he have any other issues, it might be a symptom of poor sensory processing
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amother
Indigo


 

Post Sun, May 14 2017, 2:03 am
This probably won't help you much, but I have the same exact issue with my 4 year old. He NEVER initiates and still has regular accidents. I have tried every method out there and we have been training for about 18 months now. I know he is capable because he has initiated a couple of times in the past.
In our case, the issue is behavioral and he was recently diagnosed with high functioning ASD. I know that ABA therapy can help and we are on several waiting lists.
Does your son have any other behavioral issues which may point to a larger issue?
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amother
Lime


 

Post Sun, May 14 2017, 2:42 am
I know this isn't what you want to hear, but he'll do it when he's ready. Some children are just late. He won't walk to the chuppah in Pull-ups.
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amother
Hotpink


 

Post Sun, May 14 2017, 11:12 am
Ok so, so far I have been told his stuff is normal and I shouldn't worry but I am beginning wonder if it's all connected amd there is something more to it.
He is very sensory touches everything often breaks stuff and still puts everything in his mouth. He never shallows anything but I often find beads and such in his mouth...
He also is very loud and can be wild and physical but physical is nothing drastic like the school does not complain that he is terrorizing his friends or anything the teachers say it's normal boy behaviour (he has a bunch of high energy boys in his class).
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, May 14 2017, 11:23 am
amother wrote:
Ok so, so far I have been told his stuff is normal and I shouldn't worry but I am beginning wonder if it's all connected amd there is something more to it.
He is very sensory touches everything often breaks stuff and still puts everything in his mouth. He never shallows anything but I often find beads and such in his mouth...
He also is very loud and can be wild and physical but physical is nothing drastic like the school does not complain that he is terrorizing his friends or anything the teachers say it's normal boy behaviour (he has a bunch of high energy boys in his class).


Time for an ASD evaluation. Even if he's so high functioning that the school is not noticing yet, the earlier you get him intervention, the better. They might just say PDD-NOS, but even then, you'll have an idea what you're dealing with.

Don't be scared just yet, though. Many kids just have ADHD, and they get so busy that they simply aren't aware of body signals, or they are aware and just don't want to stop playing long enough to use the bathroom. I've seen this in a LOT of kids.
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amother
Hotpink


 

Post Mon, May 15 2017, 9:52 pm
FranticFrummie wrote:
Time for an ASD evaluation. Even if he's so high functioning that the school is not noticing yet, the earlier you get him intervention, the better. They might just say PDD-NOS, but even then, you'll have an idea what you're dealing with.

Don't be scared just yet, though. Many kids just have ADHD, and they get so busy that they simply aren't aware of body signals, or they are aware and just don't want to stop playing long enough to use the bathroom. I've seen this in a LOT of kids.


Yeah I was thinking as much. I don't think it's ASD but I have been thinking ADD or ADHD with sensory issues... parent teacher conferences are coming up next week and I'm gonna push for some sort of evaluation although this close to the end of the year it may not all be put in place till next year but I could work on it over the summer to if I start now.
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picklelover




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 16 2017, 11:04 am
I don't see anything wrong with your son. I just don't think you've properly trained him.
Waiting till he tells you he needs to go is not the way to train.
This is what I've done for my kids and works. Very quickly.
No underwear for entire day. Long shirt and socks.
Get a small potty (I find this really helps).
Every ten minutes you go with him to the bathroom and sit him down. You stay with him. Tell him if something comes out he gets a chocolate chip (or whatever you want to give). Wait a few minutes. If he hasn't used the bathroom in a while and you feel he really needs it, give him a book to read so he stays calmly for longer.
If #2 comes out, he gets extra choc chips.
Do this the whole day religiously every ten minutes (unless right after he uses it, u can stretch it for a bit longer maybe half hour..)
You can give extra water to drink so he needs the bathroom often. Expect accidents. It's ok and normal. And do not get upset at him if he has an accident. Make it a positive experience for him. Give him attention every time he uses the bathroom.
You need to be on top of it, but this is the only method I found that really works and you might be surprised that u might be done after day #1! But most probably you'll need a few days. Don't leave the house for these days!
And once you're sure he got the hang of it, then u start with underwear but u still need to remind him to go every ten minutes even if he says he doesn't need it. It could take a week till he starts to initiate himself.
Good luck!
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amother
Coral


 

Post Tue, May 16 2017, 11:12 am
picklelover wrote:
I don't see anything wrong with your son. I just don't think you've properly trained him.
Waiting till he tells you he needs to go is not the way to train.
This is what I've done for my kids and works. Very quickly.
No underwear for entire day. Long shirt and socks.
Get a small potty (I find this really helps).
Every ten minutes you go with him to the bathroom and sit him down. You stay with him. Tell him if something comes out he gets a chocolate chip (or whatever you want to give). Wait a few minutes. If he hasn't used the bathroom in a while and you feel he really needs it, give him a book to read so he stays calmly for longer.
If #2 comes out, he gets extra choc chips.
Do this the whole day religiously every ten minutes (unless right after he uses it, u can stretch it for a bit longer maybe half hour..)
You can give extra water to drink so he needs the bathroom often. Expect accidents. It's ok and normal. And do not get upset at him if he has an accident. Make it a positive experience for him. Give him attention every time he uses the bathroom.
You need to be on top of it, but this is the only method I found that really works and you might be surprised that u might be done after day #1! But most probably you'll need a few days. Don't leave the house for these days!
And once you're sure he got the hang of it, then u start with underwear but u still need to remind him to go every ten minutes even if he says he doesn't need it. It could take a week till he starts to initiate himself.
Good luck!


There's no 'one perfect way' for toilet training. Though actually most experts say the opposite of what you are saying - that you shouldn't take them AT ALL, let them have accidents and then start going on their own.
It sounds like OP has tried many different ways. I'm sure her son will eventually get the hang of it though I wouldn't say that she hasn't properly trained him just because she did it a different way than you did. Some kids are easy to train and some take a lot of time and energy.
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amother
Slateblue


 

Post Tue, May 16 2017, 11:26 am
Op I feel your frustration. I have posted about this before. My daughter is 5 and has been having issues since 2 1/2 when I tried training her. Your son is not having bowel movements because he is scared. This is called withholding and usually leads to wet and poop accidents.

1. If you think your child might have any behavioral problems causing this definitely get evaluated

2. Children who have bathrooms problems don't necessarily outgrow it! And most pediatricians are really not knowledgeable about it. Push for referrals to a gastro. Your child probably needs miralax and other interventions.

Good luck!
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simcha2




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 16 2017, 12:15 pm
Has the pediatrician considered constipation and encopresis?
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picklelover




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 16 2017, 1:00 pm
I didn't say it's the only way. Many old school experts say to let them have accidents and that's how they'll learn but if you do your own research you'll see everyone nowadays says if you keep the kid naked he will learn fastest. The additional things I added were just ways I personally do it to help it really work, but the main idea is to keep the kid naked and by bringing him to the toilet, you're giving him the chance to actually pish into the toilet, which then teaches them that that's what you want them to learn. They don't know on their own or they can be scared. So having them actually do it, just helps them learn that this is what you mean when you say: "let me know when you need the bathroom" "or go to the toilet when u need it". This way you're showing them hands on.
This method has been proven to work even with autistic children and others with developmental delays.
Also, from the op's post, it doesn't seem like she's tried different methods out there. It seems she just expected her child to know on his own.
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amother
Black


 

Post Tue, May 16 2017, 1:31 pm
ds had the same as op. just he was trained properly at age 3. at age 4-5 he started witholding. I dont know why. he always had constipation from when he was newborn. he was on miralax most of his life. as soon as I would take him off it would get really bad. it was behavioral and he was diagnosed with adhd. and is on meds for that. hes been to a top psychologiist to helep him with this issue.

he has encopresis. at this point I would go to a good gastroenterolosit. its definitely sounds like behavoiral. hes definitely witholding. as evidneced by your words. he might be afraid that it will hurt. so miralax and fiber and lots to drink will soften it and make it painless. you really need a good gastro. and work with a good psychologist that works with enco. if he has initiated then he does have feelings there. you need a good gastro to help you with all this. to test him to see if he might not have the best sensation there. regardless dont push this off as it doesnt resolve on its own.

at this point because I know that ds is capable of going to the batheroom when he needs and that it was behavoiral I didnt make a fuss of his accidents I just told him that its his responsiblity to go and keep himself clean. I have been to hell and back with this whole issue. this really made it very painful for me as a mother. because the doctors themselves dont have an idea why such big kids would be ok to stay dirty and not go to the bathroom when all their friends smell it. hes a very bright kid. he is immature in some areas.

and yes was diagnosed with adhd. and I was told that adhd kids are pretty common to have this.
dont get angry when he has an accident. very calmly make him clean it up. I did that by instruction of a top psychologitst. the less responsibility I took and made it very clear to him that its his the more he took it on himself and also if he was reading or playing while an accident I would take away that thing for that day. he would get it back the next day. eventually he got it that if he does this he gets a consequence. because even if it bothered him it wasnt bothering him enough to stop doing it.

I just want to add one more thing. I did not take this well. I would get very upset with him it made our relationship very strained. I was instructed to not get upset it was very very hard. but now I think were doing much better. he takes responsiblity.

anymore questions I am ready to asnwer.
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amother
Gold


 

Post Tue, May 16 2017, 1:37 pm
Op first stop is behavioral evaluation with a developmental pediatrician. You don't need to arrange that through school, call your local hospitals.
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amother
Black


 

Post Tue, May 16 2017, 1:39 pm
also working with the psychologist really put the peices together. we were able to tell that it was for sure behavioral.

the longer you wait the worse it gets. you need intervention. because the longer they withold and doing the wrong behavior the longer they get used to doing the wrong thing and then you have to work harder to get rid of theat behavior. true that pediatricians are not knowledged in this area. dont let a pediatrician tell you it will get better. it doesnt on its own.

it could also be sensory but I think its behavioral they got themselves into a rut and are just too usede to doing the wrong thing and the inattentiveness adds to this problem. being busy and ignoring body singals. and the hyperactivity that is making it worse. once those issues are resolved it gets better. and do give him responsibility. tell him he needs to make in the toilet. hes too big for this. tell him you will take him to a doctor to work on this.

ask him if it bothers him to be dirty? ask him if he wants to be like the other kids in class. that will tell you how developed his or not. my ds used to think noone knows. he was oblivious untill I told him everyone knows. I dont know if that helped though. inattentiveness is his weakness. not sure if this helps you.
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amother
Black


 

Post Tue, May 16 2017, 1:40 pm
if your in lakewood got to chop to dr. verma she is the top in the field in our neighborhood.
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amother
Indigo


 

Post Tue, May 16 2017, 2:17 pm
picklelover wrote:
I don't see anything wrong with your son. I just don't think you've properly trained him.
Waiting till he tells you he needs to go is not the way to train.
This is what I've done for my kids and works. Very quickly.
No underwear for entire day. Long shirt and socks.
Get a small potty (I find this really helps).
Every ten minutes you go with him to the bathroom and sit him down. You stay with him. Tell him if something comes out he gets a chocolate chip (or whatever you want to give). Wait a few minutes. If he hasn't used the bathroom in a while and you feel he really needs it, give him a book to read so he stays calmly for longer.
If #2 comes out, he gets extra choc chips.
Do this the whole day religiously every ten minutes (unless right after he uses it, u can stretch it for a bit longer maybe half hour..)
You can give extra water to drink so he needs the bathroom often. Expect accidents. It's ok and normal. And do not get upset at him if he has an accident. Make it a positive experience for him. Give him attention every time he uses the bathroom.
You need to be on top of it, but this is the only method I found that really works and you might be surprised that u might be done after day #1! But most probably you'll need a few days. Don't leave the house for these days!
And once you're sure he got the hang of it, then u start with underwear but u still need to remind him to go every ten minutes even if he says he doesn't need it. It could take a week till he starts to initiate himself.
Good luck!
I posted upthread about my precious son with the same issues. Believe me, this does not work for all children. Yes, my kid ran around naked for over 4 weeks and did not leave the house even once during that time and he is still not properly trained. It all was done with a positive attitude. Some kids have other intertwining issues and require professional intervention.
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amother
Black


 

Post Tue, May 16 2017, 3:23 pm
of course not all kids will train the classic way. they have issues that regular kids have and need intervention. its a no brainer.
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picklelover




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, May 16 2017, 7:22 pm
I'm not saying there is for sure no issue here. I just think people on here are so quick about labeling kids and deciding that every kid needs evaluation and therapy. If op would have said she tried different methods and nothing worked, for sure I agree she should look deeper. But nowhere in her post did she hint to any issues so I don't understand why everyone is jumping on evaluating her son and getting professional help. Again, I'm not ruling that out, I just think she should first try doing it right before deciding there is a real issue here.
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amother
Black


 

Post Tue, May 16 2017, 7:34 pm
read the op again. it says she is at her wits end. means she tried the classic regular way.

op just to clarify for us all. can you tell us what you have tried so far?

that is why all of us are telling her she needs to get more help because normal regular kids go the regular route. kids with issues need something else. not saying others are not normal it just means they dont respond to the usual stuff.
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