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Heter to fly on Shabbat
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WhatFor









  


Post  Thu, May 18 2017, 11:09 pm
Working women - or anyone - have you ever gotten a heter to fly on Shabbat? Into Saudi Arabia?

I would understand this a bit more if the question was "I need to fly out of Saudi Arabia and the only flight out is on Shabbat."

Okay, anyone who knows my posts knows that I really don't care how people choose to conduct their lives or practice their religion. But when non-Jewish outlets are posting news articles about how two prominent Jews are getting a heter from their Rabbi to straight up violate travelling outside of a techum for reasons that I cannot see would be a matter of life or death (why can't they travel before?)....It's really starting to look like some people are so chashuv that the Torah doesn't apply to them.

Honestly, this would not bother me if they straight up came out and said that they were religious and violating Shabbat that weekend or that they were just straight-up not religious (and I know the fact that it wouldn't bother me is controversial on this site but I can accept that people have their own viewpoints or challenges in life). But why is this being presented as consistent with Orthodox halacha?

And if this is consistent, I'm happy to learn something new and be told I'm wrong. That's a preferable belief to"some people are so important (read rich) the Torah doesn't apply to them."


http://www.politico.com/story/.....bat-238586
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amother




Indigo


Post  Thu, May 18 2017, 11:16 pm
never got a heter.
then again, never asked Smile

I stopped using the words orthodox a long time ago. I much prefer the term Torah Jew. I think it is more descriptive of the type of Jew I am trying to be.
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WhatFor









  


Post  Thu, May 18 2017, 11:26 pm
amother wrote:
never got a heter.
then again, never asked Smile

I stopped using the words orthodox a long time ago. I much prefer the term Torah Jew. I think it is more descriptive of the type of Jew I am trying to be.


Wait, Ivanka- is that really you?

Okay- jokes aside. But then if you're not keeping some of what Orthodoxy considers basic halacha, would you ever represent yourself in the public eye as Orthodox and then do things that seem to violate those Orthodox principles, but then argue that what your doing is still within the parameter of Orthodox Judaism?
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tichellady









  


Post  Thu, May 18 2017, 11:45 pm
I have much bigger things to worry about- like trump being president!
I'm totally not an ivanka fan, but this doesn't bother me. I know nothing about the halakhot that apply to people who work high up in the government. I also don't think being on a plane on Shabbat is a very strong halakhic issue, even though it's not normal practice it doesn't strike me as something that wouldn't get a heter. They are not flying the plane. I know people can be on cruise boats on Shabbat.
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amother




Maroon


Post  Fri, May 19 2017, 7:54 am
Who gave this heter?

Did he make public the reasoning behind it?
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amother




Lavender


Post  Fri, May 19 2017, 8:52 am
I would not travel to Saudi Arabia or Even Turkey or Dubai. It's not safe.
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amother




Powderblue


Post  Fri, May 19 2017, 9:43 am
And here I thought its a ' frum' site! Whom am I kidding?????!!!!! Banging head
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SixOfWands









  


Post  Fri, May 19 2017, 10:09 am
amother wrote:
And here I thought its a ' frum' site! Whom am I kidding?????!!!!! Banging head


Why would it not be a "frum site" because we're discussing the halachic basis of a heter given to a prominent couple who hold themselves out to the public as Orthodox Jews, as well as the impact it has on the Jewish world at large.

I don't agree with frum-shaming Kushner. I have my own struggles and challenges; I don't get to laud it over others who face these kind of decisions.

And in this case, I can see the basis of a heter. Much like staying on a boat or on a train over Shabbat, it may be OK. The plane is going for Trump, not for them, and their extra weight is not likely to make a difference. I'd even venture that its a whole lot less problematic than travelling to attend the inaugural parties. And also a lot less problematic than potentially attending meetings and conducting non-emergency business, and presumably being in cars on arrival on Shabbat. But I'm not rabbi. Or rabba.

That said, its certainly led to a whole lot of nasty comments on social media, which I could have lived without.
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amother




Ivory


Post  Fri, May 19 2017, 10:15 am
SixOfWands wrote:


And in this case, I can see the basis of a heter. Much like staying on a boat or on a train over Shabbat, it may be OK. The plane is going for Trump, not for them, and their extra weight is not likely to make a difference.


Even though youre allowed to ride on a boat over shabat, you have to board before shabat and cant leave the boat if it dock on shabat because it came from out of the techum. I highly doubt air force 1 will be in the air for 25 hours
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tichellady









  


Post  Fri, May 19 2017, 10:17 am
Does it also upset you that doctors and nurses work on shabbos and may consider themselves orthodox?
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amother




Wine


Post  Fri, May 19 2017, 10:41 am
tichellady wrote:
Does it also upset you that doctors and nurses work on shabbos and may consider themselves orthodox?


That's not the same at all. A doctor and nurse are doing it to save lives. Ivanka is not saving anyone's life here. She's not the president, she doesn't have to go, she's choosing to go.
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PinkFridge









  


Post  Fri, May 19 2017, 10:53 am
SixOfWands wrote:
Why would it not be a "frum site" because we're discussing the halachic basis of a heter given to a prominent couple who hold themselves out to the public as Orthodox Jews, as well as the impact it has on the Jewish world at large.

I don't agree with frum-shaming Kushner. I have my own struggles and challenges; I don't get to laud it over others who face these kind of decisions.

And in this case, I can see the basis of a heter. Much like staying on a boat or on a train over Shabbat, it may be OK. The plane is going for Trump, not for them, and their extra weight is not likely to make a difference. I'd even venture that its a whole lot less problematic than travelling to attend the inaugural parties. And also a lot less problematic than potentially attending meetings and conducting non-emergency business, and presumably being in cars on arrival on Shabbat. But I'm not rabbi. Or rabba.

That said, its certainly led to a whole lot of nasty comments on social media, which I could have lived without.


I totally agree with this.
I appreciate that some people in public might be making it harder for those of us not in public. I remember once having to explain to a professor (actually, an old-school priest, who'd be about 100 if he's still alive) why I had to skip school on Succos and he mentioned a Jew in the class who'd bageled me and said, "But (this Jew's name) only missed R"H and Y"K, and he's one of you people." So I had to explain how I'm Orthodox, and this kid wasn't.

That's easy compared to trying to teitch the Kushners, and I appreciate the very difficult situation some people are being put in, and hope that they will be able to defend themselves fully, yet somehow diplomatically, or at least with dignity and not derision of anyone who's making things difficult for them.

Yes, it's possible that according to the halachos of l"h they seem to be putting themselves in some category where we don't have to be dlkz, etc. AFAI can tell, they are nowhere near the point where it's a mitzvah to mock them.
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grace413









  


Post  Fri, May 19 2017, 11:11 am
Somewhat off topic but I was under the impression that they don't generally allow Jews to enter Saudi Arabia.

Guess somebody gave the Saudis a heter.
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SixOfWands









  


Post  Fri, May 19 2017, 11:18 am
grace413 wrote:
Somewhat off topic but I was under the impression that they don't generally allow Jews to enter Saudi Arabia.

Guess somebody gave the Saudis a heter.


No, the Saudis allow Jews to visit (and they at least claim that Jews can work in Saudi Arabia). But not Israelis, or others who have visited Israel. The ban apparently doesn't apply to political leaders or their daughters.
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tichellady









  


Post  Fri, May 19 2017, 11:35 am
amother wrote:
That's not the same at all. A doctor and nurse are doing it to save lives. Ivanka is not saving anyone's life here. She's not the president, she doesn't have to go, she's choosing to go.


And doctors are saving lives when they drive home from the hospital on shabbos ( which they are allowed to do)? I actually don't think it's so different at all. I imagine whoever gave them the heter thinks they will be influencing middle eastern policy in a way that hopefully will be saving lives. Doesn't seem like a stretch to me at all. I don't know why you seem to think you are a posek.
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tichellady









  


Post  Fri, May 19 2017, 11:36 am
SixOfWands wrote:
No, the Saudis allow Jews to visit (and they at least claim that Jews can work in Saudi Arabia). But not Israelis, or others who have visited Israel. The ban apparently doesn't apply to political leaders or their daughters.


Non-Muslim cannot visit Mecca, but can visit other parts of saudia Arabia
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MiracleMama









  


Post  Fri, May 19 2017, 11:44 am
amother wrote:
That's not the same at all. A doctor and nurse are doing it to save lives. Ivanka is not saving anyone's life here. She's not the president, she doesn't have to go, she's choosing to go.


I suspect that this is actually the reason for the heter and no, Ivanka is not president but she and her husband both advise the president and things are very volatile in the middle east so I can see how this can easily fall into the category of potentially saving lives.
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PinkFridge









  


Post  Fri, May 19 2017, 11:53 am
MiracleMama wrote:
I suspect that this is actually the reason for the heter and no, Ivanka is not president but she and her husband both advise the president and things are very volatile in the middle east so I can see how this can easily fall into the category of potentially saving lives.


As long as this won't jeopardize other professionals. Or make medical schools rethink their shomer Shabbos residency accommodations. Or...
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treestump









  


Post  Fri, May 19 2017, 11:59 am
amother wrote:
That's not the same at all. A doctor and nurse are doing it to save lives. Ivanka is not saving anyone's life here. She's not the president, she doesn't have to go, she's choosing to go.


Given her father's foot in mouth disease, she may very well be saving all of our lives by babysitting him in the Middle East.
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amother




Navy


Post  Fri, May 19 2017, 12:02 pm
treestump wrote:
Given her father's foot in mouth disease, she may very well be saving all of our lives by babysitting him in the Middle East.

And if she converted just because Kushner wanted to marry a Jew then her whole being 'Jewish' is big sofek.
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