your neshama begged for this....

amother

Emerald

Thu, May 25 2017, 9:30 am

amother wrote:

I'm pretty sure the first time I read that expression was many many years ago, and it was a chapter title in one of Miriam Adahan's books. But I'm wondering where she got it from

She got it from Rav Nachman M'Breslov. He gave the situation of an arrogant domineering community leader who was sentenced to Gehinom for all the problems he caused others by being one. He begged to come back to this world again instead, with a difficult life so he wouldn't have the ability to be arrogant and domineering anymore.

Chayalle

Thu, May 25 2017, 9:49 am

I think it's fine to hear these kinds of concepts when we're sitting in a BY classroom, warm and cozy and spacing out as the teacher drones on....maybe to pull it out of the foggy recesses of our brain one day if we happen to be one of those people who find it helpful and comforting.

To actually say this to someone in pain is IMVHO beyond insensitive.

I was at a Shiva not long ago, for a little toddler who did not wake up one morning. There was this Rebetzinny lady there, and she was going on and on to the poor mother, about how Hashem does this for our tikkun, like the blacksmith bangs out the iron to make it stronger and more shiny, blah blah blah.

It was one of those times when I seriously wanted to bang someone's head into the wall (no, I'm generally not a violent person.) And give the mother a huge hug (that part I did, as I was leaving.)

yksraya

Thu, May 25 2017, 9:59 am

Chayalle wrote:

Of course one should not say it to someone in crisis, especially not to a grieving parent!

It's something I say to myself, as part of growing in faith and acceptance. And it's what works for me. But no, can not be said to someone who is currently going through something tough.

amother

Emerald

Thu, May 25 2017, 10:09 am

[quote="Chayalle"]

I was at a Shiva not long ago, for a little toddler who did not wake up one morning. There was this Rebetzinny lady there, and she was going on and on to the poor mother, about how Hashem does this for our tikkun, like the blacksmith bangs out the iron to make it stronger and more shiny, blah blah blah.

I was once by the opposite situation. I was also being menachem avel someone who lost a young child. A Rebbitzin type lady said something about "These things can be understood with gilgulim. Your child received the required tikun in your house and is now in Gan Eden" To which some other lady responded "That can't be! Rav Saadya Gaon didn't believe in gilgulim. The whole gilgul concept blah blah blah..." The avalah definitely didn't appreciate the second lady.

These type of concepts probably all have some truth to them in some situations. Whether they should be said or not depends on who you are talking to and what their situation is.

amother

Crimson

Thu, May 25 2017, 10:21 am

[quote="amother"]

Chayalle wrote:

I was at a Shiva not long ago, for a little toddler who did not wake up one morning. There was this Rebetzinny lady there, and she was going on and on to the poor mother, about how Hashem does this for our tikkun, like the blacksmith bangs out the iron to make it stronger and more shiny, blah blah blah.

I was once by the opposite situation. I was also being menachem avel someone who lost a young child. A Rebbitzin type lady said something about "These things can be understood with gilgulim. Your child received the required tikun in your house and is now in Gan Eden" To which some other lady responded "That can't be! Rav Saadya Gaon didn't believe in gilgulim. The whole gilgul concept blah blah blah..." The avalah definitely didn't appreciate the second lady.

These type of concepts probably all have some truth to them in some situations. Whether they should be said or not depends on who you are talking to and what their situation is.

I believe that the point is that when we are giving chizzuk to someone in a situation we are supposed to remember what nebach stands for, being nosei b'ol chaveiro. We are supposed to try to remain strong inside so that we can provide emotional support for the person in pain.
That is it. Grieving times are not meant to be dealt with using fancy explanations. It's a time to process emotions. To feel them and experience them. It is so much easier when we have support doing so.

Seas

Thu, May 25 2017, 10:30 am

PinkFridge wrote:

Neither have I. But you can try Rabbi Yitzchak Kirzner's Making Sense of Suffering, she offers helpfully.

Actually, I've heard this. Can't tell you where and when I first heard it but I don't find it revolting, stupid, etc. I do think it's up there with absolutely worst, inanest, etc. thing one can say to someone who's suffering.

However, as something to put in my toolkit to remember when I myself am going through a challenge? I'm ok with it. It's usually told with a story, like the rich man who dies and says, "I have to go back? But You gave me such overwhelming nisyonos, I can't go back as a rich man again. I just can't!" So he goes back, to achieve his tikkun, as a poor man with a whole different set of nisyonos.

ETA: cross-posted with life is fun. Great minds and all that. (And that was the avatar I chose when I temporarily lost mine. Good taste! Wink

)

Quite right. It's idiotic and wrong to say it to someone who's suffering. However, the concept on its own is sensible and comforting.

Imagine ch"v a parent seeing a child in agony during chemotherapy. They'd have to be stupid and heartless to tell the child laconically that it's for their good, when all the child wants or needs at the time is a hug and empathy. But in truth it is for the child's good, and it is what they would have chosen for themselves had they had the understanding of the issues.

Our neshamas in heaven realize what is wrong and what needs to be fixed, and they choose to accept the bitter medicine.

Last edited by Seas on Thu, May 25 2017, 10:56 am; edited 1 time in total

zaq

Thu, May 25 2017, 10:37 am

Chayalle wrote:

This.

PinkFridge

Thu, May 25 2017, 10:43 am

amother wrote:

That is so great. Next time I react to something with a sigh and a "nebach" I have to remember that that's a signal to work on my nosei b'ol chaveiro.
(It sounds like something Rabbi Krohn would say.)

Orchid

Thu, May 25 2017, 11:55 am

I've read this concept in Miriam Adahan's "It's All a Gift." I find it personally somewhat comforting, but I would never tell it to someone else. Just like I would never tell someone whose kid is terminally ill "you must be so special that Hashem chose you for this nisayon." I'll take not being so special, thank you very much.

But as I said, it's a private comfort for me.

amother

Ecru

Thu, May 25 2017, 2:21 pm

Ok., so for sources we have

Miriam Adahan- It's all a Gift

Rabbi Nachman

Rav Tzaddok

Now- how to.find exact original source.

Let's see.

Orchid - do you by any chance still have a copy of the Miriam Adahan book, in case she has a reference?

(btw I THINK that's the book (possibly even the chapter) (I'm dredging this out of the very back recesses of my memory) where she says something like she realized that having a super critical husband was exactly what she needed , and I remember reading that sentence and thinking"this idea is totally crazy" and not reading another word. That after being a big "fan").

Or

Does anyone know how to "look up" Rabbi Nachman?

Or where they think Rav Tzaddok said this?

Separate point.

You know it just occurred to me one reason why it sounds so off, this expression ? Because it is the sort of thing that used to be said to kids before punishing them, but like this-
"you asked for it!". Ugh.

watergirl

Thu, May 25 2017, 2:36 pm

amother wrote:

Admittedly, this is really the only post on this thread that I read, and it makes me crazy when people comment that on other peoples threads so I'm sorry for making that come in here. But I do know how to look up Rebbe Nachman. What can I help with? I also thought that the title of this thread it was very apropos to me because I was recently at a Rabbi Lazer Brody event and from what I gather from the OP, this is exactly what he spoke about at the event. So how can I help? What would you like me to look up for you?

crust

Thu, May 25 2017, 2:41 pm

amother wrote:

You know it just occurred to me one reason why it sounds so off, this expression ? Because it is the sort of thing that used to be said to kids before punishing them, but like this-
"you asked for it!". Ugh.

You knew I am gonna shot up at this, didn't you?
Which human being has such power to 'give' the nashama what it was begging for?
If you can still reach those adults today, give them a few in my name. Tell them G-d sent it through you through me. Its for thier neshuma.
Whew

watergirl

Thu, May 25 2017, 3:55 pm

crust wrote:

I'm gonna second that.
This is NOT Reb Nachman's vort.

Rebbe Nachman does discuss this. But he brings the Zohsr as his source. I can tell you exactly where he does this later when my husband comes home to help me look it up. We have a sefer that lists all of Rabbeinus torahs and where they are found in his works.

crust

Thu, May 25 2017, 4:00 pm

watergirl wrote:

Reb Nachman quotes it. It's not his original verse like; v'afili b'hastura... or; gesher tzaar m'od.

Orchid

Thu, May 25 2017, 4:09 pm

amother wrote:

I don't have it on me, no, and I read it many years go. I think it's in the introduction to the book as the entire book is based on that concept.

greenfire

Thu, May 25 2017, 4:26 pm

I know this is supposed to be a 'learning' discussion ... but I'm just going to give my thoughts

while our neshamas want to do mitzvos - only our guf can ... so a tikkun is needed for any reparations

but life isn't easy & nobody really wants anybody to tell them 'well that's for your own good' when they have trials & tribulations

imagine a kid that falls & hits his head and all his parent can say is 'I told you to be careful' ... what the child needs now is comfort & coddling since they are now hurting

a neshama always yearns to be with our creator