Orthodox paramedic suing hospital over "no skirts policy"

greenfire

Thu, May 25 2017, 10:52 pm

https://www.jta.org/2017/05/24.....olicy

obviously I don't know all the details ... but I wonder if this is acceptable to do a job in the wrong type of clothing where there is potential risk of a skirt getting in the way - there is body lifting onto gurneys, equipment & medical attention that could be compromised under emergency

imagine if a lifeguard was wearing clothing at their post it would be a dangerous impediment

tichellady

Thu, May 25 2017, 11:23 pm

I imagine part of what will be discussed in the case is if it's actually necessary for the job or nit

seeker

Thu, May 25 2017, 11:35 pm

I guess it will be an argument over whether the skirts interfere with the job, since it makes sense that they might yet other employers have not had this issue. So while I agree that it would make a lot of sense for the religion to make an exception in this case, especially since skirts are more of a custom than a law, she also has a good case on the basis of this not being a universal standard of safety.

groisamomma

Thu, May 25 2017, 11:36 pm

Petra wrote:

In my opinion, it's more un-tznius to wear a skirt in such a job given the various tasks needed.

I've seen the various tasks you are referring to be successfully accomplished by many non-Jewish nurses wearing skirts.

Welcome to imamother.

wondergirl

Thu, May 25 2017, 11:37 pm

If you can break Shabbos to save a life then I would think that you can break tznius rules to save lives as well.

groisamomma

Thu, May 25 2017, 11:40 pm

wondergirl wrote:

If you can break Shabbos to save a life then I would think that you can break tznius rules to save lives as well.

How does this make any sense? She should slip into pants every time there's a Code Blue? Your statement made me LOL, seriously.

People on this board are only saying this because it's someone frummer than they are that's initiating the lawsuit. News flash: I hope she wins.

Edited for typo.

Last edited by groisamomma on Sun, May 28 2017, 1:23 am; edited 1 time in total

wondergirl

Thu, May 25 2017, 11:48 pm

groisamomma wrote:

How does this make any sense? She should slip into pants every time there's a Code Blue? Your statement made me LOL, seriously.

People on this board are only saying this because it's someone drummer than they are that's initiating the lawsuit. News flash: I hope she wins.

Either that or she can wear her skirt on top of her pants and pull her skirt off when she responds to a call. Firefighters put on their uniform every time they respond to a call as well, why cant she do the same thing?

Also, many Modern Orthodox women do wear pants so the halachas are not as black and white as you make it out to be and she can just get a heter to wear pants for her job.

seeker

Thu, May 25 2017, 11:52 pm

First of all, sure nurses do fine in skirts. Nurses are not paramedics. I imagine paramedics need to do many different physical maneuvers than nurses - and quickly, and in complicated and unpredictable environments.

Secondly, in terms of changing between pants/skirts, I had assumed that she would have been wearing the pants for the duration of her paramedic shift. We're not talking about a 24/7 on-call Hatzolah job here. It's a hospital that probably keeps their paramedics pretty busy, in predetermined shifts. So she'd change into her pants when beginning her shift, and change into her skirt when signing off.

Amarante

Fri, May 26 2017, 1:56 am

I think the job functions of an EMT are quite a bit different than a nurse. Nurses in a hospital setting don't have to do anything like the job functions of a paramedic. Just the act if carrying a stretcher down a staircase in a long skirt might be problematic.

I suppose I could think of a situation in which a hospital nurse has to perform some physically acrobatic feat but I just have never seen it so it must happen pretty rarely. evrn in a Code Situation, a skirt wouldn't hinder what they are doing.

Perhaps in an ER but that's more equivalent to an EMT and most of the ER nurses I've seen are also nit performing duties that are acrobatic in any way.

Last edited by Amarante on Fri, May 26 2017, 11:53 am; edited 1 time in total

shabbatiscoming

Fri, May 26 2017, 2:28 am

Here in Israel women are allowed to wear skirts, with pants under it, and work as paramedics.

But in terms of this case, specifically, I think this woman is in the wrong. She knew what the dress code was for her job, so why did she think she would be allowed to not wear pants?

zaq

Fri, May 26 2017, 6:18 am

More power to her. If it's really a safety issue so be it, but many policies are "justified " as being a job necessity when they are not. I imagine some kind of compromise could be reached, like wearing pants with a stretchy skirt that's narrow but not too narrow and just long enough to cover the seat. IOW something like skeggings (what an ugly word) but with normal trousers instead of leggings and a looser skirt.

I hope she wins.

Raisin

Fri, May 26 2017, 7:00 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

I suppose because she worked as a paramedic for other employers and they allowed her to wear skirts.

I don't see why wearing a skirt with trousers underneath would be dangerous.

tovli toraspicha

Fri, May 26 2017, 7:16 am

I don't see how wearing scrub pants, with a short stretchy and not tight skirt over them would be dangerous in this situation?

SixOfWands

Fri, May 26 2017, 10:12 am

Perhaps its a lack of imagination on my part, but I don't see how a skirt is likely to be dangerous for a paramedic. She's not a firefighter. Of course she would need to make sure that it doesn't constrict movement, but that's not difficult.

BUT ... the EEOC or court will make that determination. If there are legitimate safety concerns that a skirt might catch on something, then skirts should be prohibited. Otherwise, she should wear leggings under a scrub skirt.

dancingqueen

Fri, May 26 2017, 10:22 am

wondergirl wrote:

If you can break Shabbos to save a life then I would think that you can break tznius rules to save lives as well.

This. I also agree with petras point about it being less tznius to climb on top of a man to resuscitate and have your skirt riding up. Scrub pants are just about the most utilitarian and least s-xy garments out there and are certainly not beged ish.

greenfire

Fri, May 26 2017, 10:40 am

paramedics do not wear scrubs ... nor should they wear leggings ... they need sturdy uniform garb with ease of movement

this is not a weekend let's-paint-my-room-wear-anything job

SixOfWands

Fri, May 26 2017, 11:01 am

greenfire wrote:

paramedics do not wear scrubs ... nor should they wear leggings ... they need sturdy uniform garb with ease of movement

this is not a weekend let's-paint-my-room-wear-anything job

I realized the scrub thing as soon as I posted.

But leggings aren't necessarily party wear. They're a form of sturdy legwear that can be worn under a skirt that facilitate ease of movement.

zaq

Fri, May 26 2017, 11:06 am

Leggings are not part of the uniform. EMTs wear uniform pants. A skirt with leggings would not be appropriate as a uniform, nor would they be appropriate from a tzniut pov because they cling like skin and show the shape of the leg. It's not just the skin that's a problem, otherwise why couldn't you walk around in a long-sleeved catsuit? Everything's covered, isn't it? Uniform pants with a short stretchy skirt in a matching color would be an ideal solution.

debsey

Fri, May 26 2017, 11:46 am

She could wear leggings under a lycra or other stretchy/durable material skirt, which would be both tznius and allow her to move more vigorously without worrying that her skirt will go up.

Listen, if the Saudia Arabian female judo team could wear hijabs in the Olympics, with no safety or performance concerns, then I imagine a paramedic could manage a skirt.

I really hope she wins her lawsuit! More power to her, she's a courageous young woman and we all should support her. To a certain degree, her lawsuit stands up for every frum woman who doesn't want to shake hands with an employer, or who wants to wear a skirt or sheitel to work.