Baali vs. Ishi | Imamother

Mothers

Sun, May 28 2017, 1:58 pm

I have recently begun to refer to my husband as “ishi” instead of “baali” (e.g. in birchas hamazon) due to the association of “baali” with ownership and/or mastery. My husband is fine with this, and I feel validated by the pasuk from Hoshea (2:18) in this past week’s Haftorah: “V’hayah bayom hahu ne’um Hashem tikrie ishi v’lo tikrie li od baali.” A recent blog post entitled, “Baali (my master) vs. ishi (my husband)” by Sharona Margolin Halickman (http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/baali-my-master-vs-ishi-my-husband/) discusses the same issue.

Does anyone have any thoughts/feelings regarding this matter?

amother

Ruby

Sun, May 28 2017, 2:11 pm

I really like that thinking- thank you! Was just discussing the blog post you mentioned/the haftara with dh last night. He says he prefers ishi with its connotations to baali. I said I agree with him but 99% of the times I have to use one word or the other, it's talking to a stranger or acquaintance and I don't want to get into a political discussion when I was just answering where my husband works or davens. Switching it in bentching seems great, though!

zaq

Sun, May 28 2017, 3:26 pm

I'm much in favor. If you're his ishah then he should be your ish. You're not his possession! But really I wish there were a separate word for spouse. There is "raayah" which means both sweetheart and wife and is imo a much nicer term. "Ishti" is literally "my woman " which still has a faintly disrespectful sound to it.

Re'I "would be the masculine equivalent of ra'ayati, as in"zeh dodi vezeh re'I" but inasmuch as it really means a friend and is not used to denote a spouse, you might be giving the wrong impression if you referred to your dh as re'I. Or even as Ben-zugi, which means my partner.

amother

Ruby

Sun, May 28 2017, 3:36 pm

zaq wrote:

Yeah, I think Ben-Zugi would leave some people wondering whether you're fully married or living in a common-law marriage. I feel like Ishi/Ishti isn't as bad in Hebrew as it sounds in English- my kids are B'ni and Biti, where Ben and Bat can also just mean boy or girl. There isn't a distinct word for son or daughter.

shabbatiscoming

Sun, May 28 2017, 3:38 pm

amother wrote:

Not sure where tyou are getting that from, but ben means soon and bat mean daughter.

amother

Ruby

Sun, May 28 2017, 3:42 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Not sure where tyou are getting that from, but ben means soon and bat mean daughter.

And boy and girl. It's not like in English. For example, we ended up with Hebrew and English copies of Once Upon A Potty, the girl version. The English one says "girl" and the Hebrew (original) says "bat", not "yalda". "Daughter" would not make sense as a translation.

zaq

Sun, May 28 2017, 3:45 pm

Ishi/Ishti doesn't sound as bad in ivrit as "my man/my woman does in English but I couldn't say why. I was pretty incensed to learn that in Spanish, "mujer" is woman and "mi mujer"is "my wife". (Esposa also means wife and to me sounds more respectful, so maybe mujer is a term used by lower class people.) Then I realized that "Ishti" is in fact an exact translation of "mi mujer", so maybe it doesn't sound disrespectful to native speakers of Spanish.

amother

Ruby

Sun, May 28 2017, 3:45 pm

amother wrote:

Scratch that- just double-checked and it does say "yalda". Still, I'm sure I've heard gananot use ben and bat when correcting preschoolers' grammar.

sequoia

Sun, May 28 2017, 6:14 pm

Um, what about in French?!

Homme -- man
Mari -- husband

Garçon -- boy
Fils -- son

Femme -- woman
Ma femme -- my wife

Fille -- girl
Ma fille -- my daughter

No need to be "incensed," zaq.

zaq

Sun, May 28 2017, 6:41 pm

[quote="sequoia"]Um, what about in French?!

Homme -- man
Mari -- husband

Garçon -- boy
Fils -- son

Femme -- woman
Ma femme -- my wife

Fille -- girl
Ma fille -- my daughter

No need to be "incensed," zaq.[/wuote]

I don't have to like it, either. Language reflects attitude.

cbg

Sun, May 28 2017, 7:14 pm

sequoia wrote:

Not to mention the famous Ladino song "La mujer de Terach." How low-class were they? Amirite?

My favorite song' you have to say muJer, 😀

tigerwife

Sun, May 28 2017, 8:12 pm

I don't know. It sounds like you are reading too much into it. English is a pretty unique language in the way that there are no feminine or masculine nouns, so that's how it escapes the issue. Otherwise, how is "my wife" that different than "ma femme"? So you're the woman of his home. That doesn't make you an owned object. It's not meant Gibbs taken literally.

Re: Baali. You can buy tees that say "His queen" and "Her King", I don't find it disrespectful but the opposite- it shows how much you love the other and how important they are in your eyes.

iluvy

Sun, May 28 2017, 8:26 pm

I have replaced all instances of "baali" with "ishi" in tefillos since I got married. I don't know how anyone can use the word baal. For anyone who says it's just a regular Hebrew word that is coincidentally synonymous with owner, here's this week's haftara to prove you wrong.

nylon

Sun, May 28 2017, 10:16 pm

Definitely prefer ish to baal. "My man" and "my woman" wound a little odd to me as an anglophone but since it's equal if we use both ish and isha, I accept it. Calling my husband master is a step too far.

amother

Jetblack

Mon, May 29 2017, 12:43 am

I understand the discomfort with "baali", but sometimes words move past their plan meaning. "Mrs." also implies being owned by a husband, which was part of the impetus behind "Ms."

But it's a patriarchal religion no matter what we do.

salt

Mon, May 29 2017, 1:16 am

When it comes down to it in Jewish marriage, a man does acquire his wife, so really, he is her owner. It's all just linguistic really. I wouldn't read too much into it. So many words in Hebrew are linked by the same root.

בעל is also a verb in Hebrew - לבעול - meaning to have intercourse. Surprised no ones has come up with any shocking comment regarding that yet!