Baali vs. Ishi | Imamother

etky

Mon, May 29 2017, 2:59 am

salt wrote:

When it comes down to it in Jewish marriage, a man does acquire his wife, so really, he is her owner. It's all just linguistic really. I wouldn't read too much into it. So many words in Hebrew are linked by the same root.

בעל is also a verb in Hebrew - לבעול - meaning to have intercourse. Surprised no ones has come up with any shocking comment regarding that yet!

Yes- and I suppose we should be grateful that the term for husband isn't בועלי.
In most of tanach the term for husband is איש and not בעל. The latter is the common rabbinic usage, though it must have had some currency earlier, otherwise the pasuk in Hoshea wouldn't make sense.
Personally, I just live with the term though it certainly is an uncomfortable one.
All the other possiblities have their drawbacks too as has been pointed out. Ish is awkward to conjugate because the מפיק is not easy to pronounce, ben zug is an indeterminate term and the masculine of רעייה is not commonly used in the context of husband (though I love רעייה instead of אישה and the term, though more literary, is used quite often).

amother

Olive

Mon, May 29 2017, 3:07 am

I also use ishi. Both when speaking Hebrew conversationally and in tefillot.

DH and I both bentsch each child Friday nights. I use the feminine forms for my daughters. DH doesn't.

amother

Purple

Mon, May 29 2017, 5:12 am

salt wrote:

When it comes down to it in Jewish marriage, a man does acquire his wife, so really, he is her owner.

This. And I'm not sure the halachic ramifications of changing davening according to your feelings.

But, of interest, I just learned another dimension to the terms according to Rashi in Kesuvot:
Ba'ali is after kedushin, Ishi is after nisuin.

Not sure why Ba'al would be used in any context nowadays, but it's an interesteing distinction.
After kedushin he is just her "owner." There's no relationship yet, but she can't marry another man. After nisuin, they build a relationship, she becomes his isha and he her ish.

amother

Ruby

Mon, May 29 2017, 5:19 am

amother wrote:

Interesting explanation. Regarding tefillot, I wouldn't change something that's a very old and standard nusach, but I've seen many slightly varying versions in different benchers such that I don't think "ishi" is problematic there. I'm curious as to what the oldest tefila is recorded in a version for women to say, that includes a mention of her husband with one word or the other. (I.e. not kaparot or she'asani kirtzono)

ora_43

Mon, May 29 2017, 5:23 am

If I could pick a word, I'd prefer "ishi" or whatever the masculine form of "ra'aya" is.

But I also have no real issue with "baali." Words move past their literal meanings. People say "husband" without meaning "head of household." People can be offended by "my woman" and still be fine with "wife," which originally meant "woman."

Hebrew is a bit different, because the word "ba'al" is currently used to connote ownership in other contexts; that's not an ancient, forgotten meaning. But Hebrew speakers don't hear "ba'ali" as "owner," they hear it as "husband."

I prefer ishi on the theoretical level but use ba'ali because it sounds more normal in day to day conversation. Like how I call my telephone a telephone, and not a sah-rachok or whatever it was supposed to be in Hebrew.

That's just me. I have nothing against the use of "ishi." If enough people use it, I would probably switch too.

amother

Jetblack

Mon, May 29 2017, 5:39 am

salt wrote:

When it comes down to it in Jewish marriage, a man does acquire his wife, so really, he is her owner.

A man does not own his wife. He can't sell her or give her away. There is a transaction here, but it's not quite a sale.

iluvy

Mon, May 29 2017, 10:35 am

Rashi says: "Ishi connotes wifehood and the love of youth. Baali connotes mastership and fear."
(Sorry for the inept translation.)
This is not some fringe feminist interpretation.

(No, a Jewish husband does not own his wife ch"v under any interpretation.)

iluvy

Mon, May 29 2017, 11:14 am

Master and Mistress were traditional respectful addresses between peers (as seen today on bar mitzvah invitations to young boys).
No one addresses a random person as "baali" to be polite -- the equivalent in Hebrew I think would be "adoni".
But I don't use Mrs. either Smile

The thing is, these words were coined in the context of patriarchy and have been marinating in it for millenia. You can't just take them out and expect them to suddenly lose the taste of it.

Ruchel

Tue, May 30 2017, 6:29 am

If he's good in daily life, then how cares about words and roots? Let's not be that finicky, odd spouse who always needs to make sure s/he's not being ill treated because of politically correct. Not that bride or husband have great roots either.

Sadie

Tue, May 30 2017, 6:54 am

Ruchel wrote:

My problem with "baal" is not its root meaning, but that it's also used in Modern Hebrew to mean owner or master. So it's not possible for me to dissociate that meaning from the "husband" meaning, when I hear it used that way every day.

I say ben zug. I don't care if it confuses people. I appear married, and if people want to clarify they are free to ask.

amother

Apricot

Tue, May 30 2017, 7:29 am

I said baali. I think it is more respectful than ishi.
Chazal teach us who is a kosher wife? The one who respects her husband.
(I'm not saying those who say ishi are disrepecting their husbands. I personally just find baali to be more respectful)
Also it is called baal from lashon "boel" as he is the one who "boel" ishto. Hamevin yavin...
(btw, "ishi" in hebrew also means personal/private.)

Ruchel

Tue, May 30 2017, 7:41 am

I generally don't like "new terms", or those that may suggest not married, as "partner" or "companion" etc. In the same way I would never have used boyfriend - it was my shidduch, or my fiancé, or just "Name" - I'd never have said boyfriend because of the association. I realize baal is also owner. I find it more funny than problematic. It's just the word. He won't treat me better because I say ishi.

amother

Ruby

Tue, May 30 2017, 8:03 am

Ruchel wrote:

Except that Ishi is actually at least as old a term as Baali. See Breishit Perek gimel, Chava's punishment.

imasoftov

Tue, May 30 2017, 9:49 am

Apricot amother wrote:

Why do you think baali is more respectful than ishi? And where does your etymology for the former come from? Does it apply only to baal meaning husband, or all meanings of the word?

heidi

Tue, May 30 2017, 9:54 am

Didn't read all the replies- but this is a pet peeve of mine. To me, Baal sounds like a guy sitting on you (his donkey) and whipping you. I keep meaning to switch to ishi, but it keeps coming out baali. Still working on it