How bad is it to eat chalav stam if you hold CY?

amother

Orange

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 2:15 am

If a woman started to hold Cholov yisroel because that's what her dh holds, is it very bad if she eats something Cholov stam?
Is it like breaking halacha? Especially since she's been doing CY so many years already. Or is it just dropping g a chumrah?

amother

Denim

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 3:57 am

AYLOR.

My understanding was that people who eat "chalav stam" are actually relying on an opinion of Rav Moshe Feinstein that in countries where there are laws supervising milk produced by companies, that supervision "counts" as chalav yisrael.

But I might be wrong on this.

Like I said

AYLOR. But I'd add BE CAREFUL who you call YOUR rabbi.

Ruchel

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 5:56 am

Chalav stam exists and is "done" for centuries.

https://judaism.stackexchange......-stam

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.....Silva

I know families who can give it to children/when stranded/not use it at home.

imasinger

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 6:20 am

AYLOR. Before asking, be prepared to talk about these details.

Her intent may matter. Whether or not she intended, when married, to take this on for herself, or whether it was for her household.

Also, her intent in eating the CS item. Was it an oversight/one time mistake, a vacation situation, or does she want to make a permanent change to give up CY?

If the latter, what is that saying about the marriage? How important is the issue to her DH? Are there kids to consider?

B'dieved, overall, in terms of how bad is it, she might put it in a category of, "serious enough to not do on a whim", and "lots easier to do teshuvah for than many other things."

amother

Blue

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 6:39 am

I would ask a Rav or learned person. I myself grew up with only CY. At one point I was dropping just about every mitzvah. I was in touch with a Rabbi throughout and he always guided me on what mitzva was worse or better to drop. Which mitzvos when not done are Kareis, Dioreisa, Dirabanan etc. . And he would say that as long as some legitimate Rabbis say it is ok than it counts for something so I ate CS at that time. Today I am a trying Jew and don't eat CS. But I would if I had a great desire for it.

doctorima

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 9:54 am

There are two separate issues here, the halachic status of chalav stam, and your decision for many years to keep CY. Even if there is a reliable opinion to permit chalav stam, the issue of violating a neder you took on (any commendable practice that's kept 3 times without saying "bli neder" takes on the status of a neder) is completely separate.

Perhaps a Rav will tell you that you can rely on Kol Nidrei or hataras nedarim for this, but that's not clear at all. Definitely ask your LOR and if you plan to continue with chalav stam, you should certainly do hataras nedarim for the future.

simba

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 10:52 am

Depends on your shita.

For those that hold that it is assur and R' Moshe's Psak was only for an emergency situation then its like eating treif.

If you hold that the pask was for general use and CY is a chumra then it's not as severe.

This is addressing CY and not any neder you made.

amother

Pearl

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 11:28 am

I don't think it's such a bad thing. The food is kosher and in my husband's yeshiva they say that the FDA has only gotten stricter about the source of the milk since R' Moshe's time. I can think of lots of situations where you, who were raised non-chalav yisroel, might want to eat chalav stam. For example, you are pregnant and are craving something. Or you are out of town and everything is OU-D. (Although nowadays there is lots of almond milk and soy, and vegan products etc).

I was raised non-chalav yisroel and took it on briefly when I worked with lots of people that kept the chumra. Then I switched to a job in Manhattan and it didn't make sense for me anymore. I had a coworker who was all into chalav yisroel but sadly over the years her religious level dropped very dramatically while mine was just mainstream frum (just plain frum) the whole time. So based on my personal experience I feel it's much better to give up a chumra rather than chas veshalom give up halacha.

mommy3b2c

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 12:18 pm

simba wrote:

Please don't exaggerate. It is not like eating treif for anybody. That being said. Everyone should ask their own rabbi.

simba

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 4:49 pm

mommy3b2c wrote:

Please don't exaggerate. It is not like eating treif for anybody. That being said. Everyone should ask their own rabbi.

Ima, sorry for shocking you with the truth. It may not be the truth for you that is why I was non-judgemenal in my post about which shita you hold by.

Just to clarify, I don't mean treif as in pig meat, I am referring to a non-certified kosher product. Most Orthodox Jews do only eat foods that are certified kosher even though the ingredients may all read ask kosher.

I do not respect your mocking tone. Feel free to snicker to yourself about fanatic Jews. This is a public forum with all types of people and being respectful is the standard here.

amother

Vermilion

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 4:59 pm

simba wrote:

Treif = non-kosher.

A pig is not kosher. Always.

Unadulterated milk from a cow is kosher. Always.

Many fruits and vegetables are kosher without certication.

tichellady

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 5:03 pm

simba wrote:

She's not being mocking or disrespectful, she is just correcting something that you said. I think there is danger in using the word treif incorrectly. The word treif does not mean " non-certified kosher product". There is a whole range of kashrut standards that we follow but it's important to know the difference between the various levels as sometimes it will be better to lower our standards for the sake of health, kibbud av ve-em etc. if someone feels faint and needs to eat something immediately it's obviously better to eat an ouD product ( if the person keeps cholov yisrael) or a non hekshered saltine type cracker than a piece of treif meat. These distinctions actually matter in real life.

cnc

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 5:06 pm

amother wrote:

Treif = non-kosher.

A pig is not kosher. Always.

Unadulterated milk from a cow is kosher. Always.

Many fruits and vegetables are kosher without certication.

FWIR, the concept of CY came about to ensure that the milk of a pig is not mixed with the milk of a cow.

Although, today in America, it's basically impossible for that to happen.

yksraya

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 5:10 pm

As par the shitta we keep, chalav stam is like eating something not kosher. Of course it's not the same as when eating real treif. But it goes into similar catagory as when a non jew cooks the food without the jew lighting the flame (non pas/bishul yisroel).

Of course we don't think someone with other shitta is doing something wrong. But someone with same/similar shita should decide to eat cholov stam, especially nowadays with so many CY choices, it would be hard not to judge. (Although I don't judge, just saying I can see why some would).

simba

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 5:11 pm

tichellady wrote:

I agree that they matter and I clarified that.

Those who hold that the heter was for emergencies and for a time that cholov Yisroel was not readily available; do not call it chalav Stam and do call it cholov akum. It has the same status to them as any milk with no hechsher on the shelf. Sorry for the severity.

If used in their Keilim, they would kasher if you used a chalav star milk or a non-hechshered milk.

amother

Vermilion

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 5:14 pm

cnc wrote:

FWIR, the concept of CY came about to ensure that the milk of a pig is not mixed with the milk of a cow.

Although, today in America, it's basically impossible for that to happen.

Yes, I know that. My point is that cow milk is not default treif if it's not supervised - atleast not by my understanding of the word. It might be, but it might not be.

I'm not addressing the repercussions of eating it.

simba

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 5:19 pm

amother wrote:

You are correct. Pure Cow milk is not Treif. It is chalav akum unless supervised by a Jew which would make it cholov Yisroel.

Chalav Stam was a heter given by R' Moshe Feinstein that ok's pure cow milk without being watched by a Jew. The debate lies within this psak.

zaq

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 5:29 pm

mommy3b2c wrote:

Please don't exaggerate. It is not like eating treif for anybody. That being said. Everyone should ask their own rabbi.

I beg to differ. Not because I personally feel that way, but because I am well acquainted with several rabbis including an acknowledged posek and a dayan, serving communities that are NOT chassidish and that wouldn't even be called strictly yeshivish, who told their constituents beferush "eating non-CY is like eating tref." In those exact words.