How bad is it to eat chalav stam if you hold CY?

Seas

Wed, Jun 07 2017, 5:02 pm

amother wrote:

The majority of rishonim and poskim hold that it applies everywhere. Allowing Chodosh in Chutz Laaretz is a heter which possibly doesn't apply nowadays either, especially since one can easily get yoshon.
I'm curious why it's okay to accept the minority opinion on yoshon but claim that those who do so for chalav yisrael are lax in their Kashrus.

Several things. The section of klal Yisroel who accepted the heter of chadash are those who generally are more stringent in all their mitzvos. This includes the greatest chassidish rebbes from the past few centuries, and all their pious chassidim.

From this one can infer that accepting the heter of chadash doesn't stem from kalus rosh (frivolity) and general lack of yiras shamayim. If the people who are generally so resistant to change and innovation in kulos accepted this, it shows they didn't do it for base motives.

With unsupervised milk, on the other hand, (how do I say this as delicately as possible without being accused of bashing Jews?) the segment of klal Yisroel who consume it willy nilly is the same segment who shows laxity in keeping to our traditions all around.

Add to that the fact that the heter of chadash is from the Bach, vs the heter of unsupervised milk from R' Moshe.

Also, as I stressed several times, even R' Moshe himself wrote that a baal nefesh should be machmir. So even the chief mattir wasn't truly satisfied with this heter (he himself only used CY).

Now let me ask you, why are you amother?

Last edited by Seas on Wed, Jun 07 2017, 5:09 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Lime

Wed, Jun 07 2017, 5:11 pm

Seas wrote:

You are making a "no true Scotsman's" argument. It goes like this:
"I know someone who accept's R' Moshe's heter and he's a big tzaddik"
Seas: "Well then he's not REALLY a big tzaddik."

Seas wrote:

With unsupervised milk, on the other hand, (how do I say this as delicately as possible without being accused of bashing Jews?) the segment of klal Yisroel who consume it willy nilly is the same segment who shows laxity in keeping to our traditions all around.

You are hopelessly misinformed. We were told by our very frum, yeshivish rav that we should be paying full tuition before we expend extra dollars on CY milk. IOW, our very limited funds should not be used for CY products on the back of other, more important, causes. I would not write this as amother were it not for this bit of personal info.

Seas wrote:

Add to that the fact that the heter of chadash is from the Bach, vs the heter of unsupervised milk from R' Moshe.

You are entitled to follow whichever posek you want, but you are disrespecting the posek followed by many tens of thousands of erliche yidden. Don't make a hierarchy over which rav is "bigger" or "better."

amother

Violet

Wed, Jun 07 2017, 5:19 pm

Seas wrote:

Interesting opinion! Does this mean youre not a fan of Yeshiva University musmachim, many of whom are very similar in observance to Lakewood learners, except for drinking Chalav Stam.

Do you by any chance give your mark of approval only to Chassidm and very Yeshivish people who only consume Chalav Yisroel?

cnc

Wed, Jun 07 2017, 5:25 pm

Seas wrote:

Sorry but you're totally wrong (although I'm
obviously not going to change your mindset.) I had a friend whose father was a respected Rav and they ate CS.
You seem quite misinformed and a "my way or the highway" personality.

And FTR, I repeat, I don't hold of CS under any circumstances.

goodmorning

Wed, Jun 07 2017, 5:34 pm

Seas wrote:

(not previous amother)

Seriously? The heterim (there have been many, including those that preceded and followed the Bach's) were all clearly advanced due to the scarcity of yoshon grain. This is explicit in the words of several of the heterim (including those of the Rema, Taz and Aruch Hashulchan) as well as in those of those who adopted the heterim (e.g. Shulchan Aruch HaRav). Just about ALL sections of Klal Yisroel accepted one or more of the various the heterim, for the simple reason that it was too difficult to obtain grain that was known to be yoshon.

Why chassidim still use the heterim is another question and I don't see how your conclusions are justified at all. Another hypothesis might be the strong sense of tradition among chassidim; there is an established tradition to eat chodosh (due to the scarcity of chodosh in Europe) and no established tradition to eat cholov stam (possibly because the classification didn't exist in Europe).

To add:

1. Cholov akum is an issur d'rabanan. Chodosh is, according to most Rishonim, a d'Oraisa even in chul. Given the choice about being stringent in one or the other, one would imagine that the d'Oraisa would win.

2. Heterim for cholov stam were given not only by R' Moshe, but also by the Pri Chodosh (/Sdei Chemed), Chazon Ish, and R' Yaakov Kamenetzky. There were also those who opposed these heterim, of course, but then, opposition to the Bach's heter included the Shach, Taz, Gra, Chida, the Pnei Yehoshua, the Sha’agas Ayreh, and the Aruch Hashulchan. Prior poskim whose psakim the Bach's psak violated include the Rosh, Rambam, Rashba, Ran, Tosafos, Tur, and Shulchan Aruch.

You're welcome to be stringent and lenient in whichever ways that you'd like, but creating strawman arguments that those who eat cholov stam are by definition more lenient in kashrus across all areas than you are is just ridiculous.

tichellady

Wed, Jun 07 2017, 5:37 pm

Seas wrote:

BTW I'd like to understand the other side of the debate. Are some of you saying that any yid, regardless of level of frumkeit but so long as they consider themselves orthodox, has the same level of trustworthiness?

Or even specifically about kashrus, are you saying that someone who eats anything as long as it has a symbol or it's on a list, would have the same level of trustworthiness regarding kashrus as someone who's very particular only to use a few heimish hecsheirim?

Is there ever a valid reason for not wishing to eat in another orthodox Jew's home?

I feel like we live on different planets. Communities have kashrut standards, sometimes they are just understood and other times the rabbi will literally write them out and publish them . If someone keeps the community's kashrut standards then people eat in their homes. If someone has standards above the community standards, they may ask the host to accommodate them. For example, when my cousins come over who keep CY I buy CY dairy for them. When my friend who is very strict about bug checking comes over I serve Israeli salad not green salad and don't serve any veggies that I know she prefers not to eat. If I know someone prefers water challah to egg challah( nor a kashrut issue but about what constitutes lechem) I would get it for him/her. when I lived in Israel I tried to accommodate people's shmitta practices when hosting.
I have never in my life heard of someone who only went by heimish hekshers- I don't even know what that means. I don't go by every heksher that exists, there is a list that is concerned acceptable in my community. I don't see any value in not eating in other frum Jews homes. I'm not saying it's always wrong, but that I don't think it's something to aspire to, more like a very sad bedeveid situation. I certainly don't think it's what chazal were going for when creating the laws of bishul akum - the whole point is to create a " then vs us" mentality and if we don't even eat at each other's homes any more than we are no longer an "us"

amother

Wine

Wed, Jun 07 2017, 5:48 pm

Seas wrote:

Interesting that you should be able to determine what segment of society I am from based on the milk I drink. I bet you wouldn't have guessed that my husband is in kollel full time. I'm not sure where you got the impression that we "consume it willy nilly". My husband asked his own shaila before we were married and I asked when I married him. I don't criticize your Rabbanim, please don't criticize mine.

I'm amother because this is something I have discussed with several people IRL and as goodmorning so aptly put it, yoshon seems more halachicly compelling than chalav yisrael.

goodmorning

Wed, Jun 07 2017, 5:54 pm

Seas wrote:

OOC, what do you mean by "trust"? Assuming that they have the same standards and/or the same level of halachic knowledge as you? Or believing them about the status of their food and standards, e.g. if they tell you that they only used a certain hechsher?

amother

Lime

Wed, Jun 07 2017, 10:09 pm

Seas wrote:

Saying there's a difference between the Bach and R' Moshe is in no way showing disrespect to the latter.

True, but I do remember other posts awhile back where you disrespected R Moshe. I do not remember where, but I do remember being appalled at the lack of kavod for Daas Torah from such a supporter of Torah as yourself. I'm sorry to be amother, but I did give a lot of personal info in my post.

We are a kollel family for 17 years, my husband learns 12+ hours a day, my sons learn a great many hours a day, and we are the ones who were told to spend our funds NOT on CY but on paying more tuition, as I mentioned above.

I hope that one day, perhaps with old age, you will come to realize that other drachim are valid besides your chassidish derech. I mean, goodness, we can have a whole conversation about all the things chassidim do kneged halacha (davening bzman?) but that would be crazy. And disrespectful to you. Eilu v'eilu.

Having said all that, I get your point. You want to improve klal yisrael's milk consumption from bidieved to lichatchila. I suggest your learn hilchos mussar, so that you don't actually harm more than help in this quest. Here's an example of how you might phrase your point:

"The heter of R' Moshe was for a specific time when it was exceedingly difficult to get CY milk, and may not even apply today according to many gedolim. Therefore I think this is an issue that would behoove us all to strive to improve in." Note- no wholesale, wanton disrespect of people ultimately following halacha (if not lechatchila). I'm hoping, with age perhaps, you will see your method of giving mussar is completely not according to the Torah.

dancingqueen

Thu, Jun 08 2017, 12:39 am

goodmorning wrote:

Wow, seas just got schooled!

As someone else pointed out, seas, it's a circular argument to state that what other chassidish people do is the guidepost for what is proper orthodox behavior (not keeping yoshon, yes keeping chalav yisrael).

Ilovemaryland

Thu, Jun 08 2017, 1:54 am

poelmamosh wrote:

Re: chassidim and yoshon,
The reason we are stricter with cholov stam versus chadash has more to do with kabbalah than strict halachic logic. Dairy products are higher on the food chain than grain (as per the hierarchy of domem, tzomeach, chai, medaber). Tanya speaks about the spiritual issues that may arise from lax Kashrus standards specifically with regard to animal-derived products.
Eta, I'm getting a sense of deja vu here...there are certainly old threads on this exact topic.

I was always told in Chabad that it had something to do with the Bach being taken to task and the Baal Shem HaKodesh getting a pardon for him...