S/O, Respected Professions

FranticFrummie

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 2:55 am

Since I went OT on the other thread, I'm going to repost it here:

Slightly OT, but what happens to your respect if a person becomes disabled?

Imagine the person in the profession you respect the most, and then that person CVS gets in a car accident and becomes paralyzed. They can no longer work, and are confined to bed or a wheelchair.

Do you lose respect for them? Do you only respect what they did in the past? What about people who are born disabled, and can't "do" what you think respectable people should be doing? Are they useless in your opinion?

I struggle with this, because I used to work 60 hours a week in a high pressure job, and then come home and remodel homes and garden on the side. Then I fell ill, and never recovered. I've been extremely disabled ever since, and I mourned a lot for the person I used to be.

I had to rediscover my value as a human being, ASIDE from what I used to "do". Who am I, if not my job? What good is my education, if I can't work? Do I still deserve respect?

Up until recently, I defined myself as a mother. Now that DD has moved away, I had another crisis of identity. If I'm not raising DD, who am I? What is my individual identity, and how does that give me value? Do I need to "do" anything to have value?

Of course I am a Bat Melech, a spark of the Divine, and I have a tikkun on this earth that no one else can accomplish but me. My number one job on this planet is to figure out why I'm here, and make the most of it before 120.

FranticFrummie

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 2:59 am

Adding to these thoughts, if you see someone who is disabled, do you admire them MORE than an able bodied person? If so, why? Would they be more or less respected if they were out of the wheelchair, or able to see?

If a disabled person were cured, would they still be "inspirational" and "heroes"? Most diabled (or "differently abled") people I know, just want to be known as people. Period. Not better or worse than anyone else.

I have lots of other thoughts on this, and I thought it would make an interesting discussion.

(also, I'm bored, but I don't want to do the laundry. LOL

)

DrMom

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 4:16 am

Why would someone disrespect someone for a life circumstance which is completely out of his or her control?

And how would that erase all their productive and helpful years that preceded their injury?

And just because the OP of the other thread asked what professions are respected does not mean that one's professional life is the only source of human respect and dignity.

And I don't think workhours/week is the criteria for deciding whether or not a profession is respectable.

imasinger

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 6:54 am

In order to become BT, I gave up a job that most people highly respected and was very full time. I work far less hours now, in a far less prestigious field.

Part of my journey began at the time my marriage ended, when I asked myself, "who am I, really?"

I discovered that I had defined myself primarily according to my roles of work and family. I needed to discover/rediscover who *I* was, at the core, and build my life around that.

I know people who have suffered and then had a yeshua. The ones I found inspirational when they had a significant handicap in life were still inspirational after the handicap was gone. Because the inspiration came from the visible growth of spirit that accompanies those who have come to terms with big challenges.

Their handicap is not what makes them inspirational, it's the way that they have faced and dealt with it.

As an aside, your role in DD's life, as her mother, is still an important part of your identity. To you and to her. Your situation is more like the mother of a grown child. She may not be living in your house any more, but your impact on each other is still profound.

amother

Blonde

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 7:00 am

Every person is a creation of Gd. Every person has a piece of Gd in him. Every person is made in His image. And, in every person is greatness.

And, from every person we can learn worlds if we just listen to the wholeness and greatness in each man.

Man in incredible. We can build worlds and destroy them.

Being disabled does nothing to change this. Being old does nothing to change this. Being too young does nothing to change this either.

Signed a young doctor who used to work in global health but now works in the protection of national health. And, I have learned far more from other people than people have gained from me.

zaq

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 7:08 am

I respect people who are doing their best at whatever they are doing, so long as they're doing it honestly. What a person does for a living or an avocation doesn't define him unless he wants it to. You know what I mean: some people make a living as waiters but really " are" actors, while others "are" proud and superb waiters and would never want to be anything else.

Of course there are people in "professions" we don't respect no matter how much money they make or charity they give : gambler, procurer, drug dealer, confidence trickster...

Bottom line, it's what you are, not what you do for a living. Too bad so few people understand this. This misunderstanding is why so many retirees grow depressed. I WAS chief of surgery or the best auto mechanic west of the Mississippi but now I'm a nothing is how they think. What a shame.

FTR I am appalled and disgusted by the thread of which this is a spinoff and don't understand why it wasn't removed. The first few posts are full of arrant bias and outright slander and is a glittering example of everything we try to bring up our children not to be. Maybe it got better later; I was so nauseated I had to stop reading.

MitzadSheini

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 7:21 am

It's an interesting question, FF.
I believe that there is a gemara somewhere in which one of the rabbis is very ill and can't teach anymore. All the other rabbis try to comfort him by reminding him of all of the great things he did in his life, but it doesn't help him. Then I think R Akiva says something like"there is meaning also in suffering", and the rabbi who is ill says something like "let me listen tov what R Akiva is saying".

There is more to everyone's life than what you immediately see. The difficult BPD person might be in the middle of a tremendous internal victory of self control, even at the exact moment that she is hurting you with her words.

A question from this statement -

imasinger wrote:

Their handicap is not what makes them inspirational, it's the way that they have faced and dealt with it.
.

What do you do with a person whose while handicap is that they DON'T overcome challenges? They keep repeating the same mistakes? What do you say, other than you don't know the whole story?

I guess some people achieve in this world in a obvious and recognised way. But many others achieve quietly, and no one knows. But they still achieve.

And amother blonde - I love what you wrote. Don't be anonymous. We want to know who you are.

imasinger

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 7:39 am

Most often, I think people still find inspiration from those who continue to TRY to grow. And have sympathy for those who are having trouble seeing the path forward. And can personally relate to such people, since they themselves struggle, too, even though their struggles may be different.

Last edited by imasinger on Tue, Jun 06 2017, 2:33 pm; edited 1 time in total

Chayalle

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 9:33 am

MitzadSheini wrote:

What do you do with a person whose while handicap is that they DON'T overcome challenges? They keep repeating the same mistakes? What do you say, other than you don't know the whole story?

You thank Hashem that you don't have those challenges. And you don't judge them. You pray you are never in their shoes.

This subject is actually very sensitive to me and close to my heart. I sometimes feel like in some of our circles, there's this expectation of everyone to rise heroically above their challenges. Then, after they are gone, we can say how special they were... you know, Grandma suffered terribly, but she never complained, etc...we like to make heroes and get inspiration off other people's suffering.

The truth is that we are human, and most people have ups and downs. Most of the time we are only privy to that if we are very close to the person.

My mother had Parkinson's for 16 years. There were times when she faced it very bravely. And there were times that were very tough. First she lost control of her body, and then, her mind. I'm not one to sit and say that it was always honky dory. At the Shiva there were people who came and tried to turn her into some superhuman saint. We daughters did not appreciate that. The truth is, my mother A"H was very real and very human.

I pray that Hashem keeps me healthy always.

youngishbear

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 11:16 am

FF, people don't lose respect for those who are less "productive" because of uncontrollable factors. In fact it's easy to go the opposite extreme, of treating people with disabilities like saints.

I worry more about those with invisible disabilities. I wish more of us would recognize the fact that Hashem created people with a drive to achieve, so if someone is not doing so, there is a reason that needs to be resolved. Blame and condemnation have no place in that process.

pizza4

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 11:42 am

What about a person with severe mental illness? Often they are special looked up to people. To the world they look like brilliant rebetzins even. But are abusive to their family. Is this person worthy of respect for the parts that do good? The days he or she is stable?

Laiya

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 12:09 pm

I think this is a very important point FF.

It's very ingrained in our society to value people for their productivity, and it's important to affirm for ourselves, and our kids, that this is not a value that we subscribe to.

If we *do* believe that a person's worth is connected to their productivity, then we are underestimating our own value, as well.

acemom

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 12:19 pm

Quote:

You thank Hashem that you don't have those challenges. And you don't judge them. You pray you are never in their shoes.
.......
I sometimes feel like in some of our circles, there's this expectation of everyone to rise heroically above their challenges. Then, after they are gone, we can say how special they were... you know, Grandma suffered terribly, but she never complained, etc...we like to make heroes and get inspiration off other people's suffering......

.....I pray that Hashem keeps me healthy always.

and

Quote:

This.

tigerwife

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 12:28 pm

So true. I remember when I had my stillbirth, one of my friends kept telling me, "You're amazing!!" Like really? Because my baby died? It's a pretty common response around here to someone who has experienced tragedy or is dealing with a terrible circumstance, that they suddenly become some amazing person. OF COURSE, there are people who deal with their issues with mind-blowing faith and grace. But those who do not are simply human, and that's ok!

I don't really believe that people actually respect others for their profession alone, and all that goes to the wastebasket when the profession is over. I also think that some people with respectable, high-authority positions are able to get these jobs because they have a persona who commands respect. So if they would no longer be a top doctor/principal/CEO they would still have that personality.

amother

Olive

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 1:12 pm

Maybe because I grew up very comfortable and around friends who were mostly extremely wealthy... I have never been impressed by people because of their profession or their possessions. I'd like to think most of us are far more soulful than that.

Re: those with disabilities... I do often admire them more than able bodies people, because I am amazed by those who are determined not to let their challenges stop them from living fulfilling lives (and not so sure I would be nearly so successful in similar circumstances; somehow I think I'd be wallowing in self pity).

Chayalle

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 1:45 pm

pizza4 wrote:

We treat people the way we ourselves would want to be treated, and leave the cheshbonos to Hashem.

Does that mean we condone those who are abusive to their families? No. If there's anything we can do to help, we do so. Beyond that, we treat people with respect at all times (even when they are not stable) to the best of our abilities.

I visited my mother at times when she was not in control of her senses. I did my best to calm her, sing to her, say Shma with her and hold her tight till she fell asleep. On the bad days and on the good days. Every person has a chelek eloka memaal - they are created in Hashem's image, with a part of Hashem. Unless they are a Rasha Gamur, they are deserving of humane, kind, and loving treatment.

amother

Scarlet

Tue, Jun 06 2017, 3:51 pm

Well. I think I paid close to $10,000 in therapy to finally learn that human beings have intrinsic value because they are human beings. period. So, even if you aren't rich or famous or smart or amaaazing because of whatever, you are still worth while. No matter what. The truth is that nothing is ever really stagnant, and we are all different things at different times. So its hard to hinge self-worth or self-respect on a job or accomplishments or productivity in any one arena.