"Everybody's faking"

amother

Amethyst

Tue, Jun 13 2017, 3:33 pm

So today I read an article about people leading double lives in the Chareidi/Chassidic world. Honestly, it's nothing I've never read before and I only read it because I was on break during lunch. The only real interesting thing to me was the last little paragraph:

But Moishe believes that the phenomenon of atheism is deeply entrenched in the Orthodox way of life. ‘Everybody’s faking,’ he insisted. ‘I think it’s all going to come crashing down. I say 20 years.’

Of course, this is just this one person's view but it got me thinking and wondering if anyone I know is faking. Honestly, not that I'd care. But he's certainly got an interesting viewpoint.

Any thoughts?

If anyone is interesting, the article is Here

grace413

Tue, Jun 13 2017, 3:36 pm

Didn't read the article. While I'm sure some people are faking it for whatever reasons, Jews have been keeping mitzvot for thousands of years and I don't think it's going to all come crashing down in the next 20 years.

leah233

Tue, Jun 13 2017, 3:51 pm

amother wrote:

But Moishe believes that the phenomenon of atheism is deeply entrenched in the Orthodox way of life. ‘Everybody’s faking,’ he insisted. ‘I think it’s all going to come crashing down. I say 20 years.’

The OTD crowd has been saying such things for thousands of years already. The name of the belief that they claimed everyone would soon come to realize depended on the external circumstances specific to that time but the mistaken claim was always the same.

S'Bchol Dor V'Dor oimdem alinu l'chalysanu

Last edited by leah233 on Tue, Jun 13 2017, 3:57 pm; edited 2 times in total

amother

Goldenrod

Tue, Jun 13 2017, 3:56 pm

leah233 wrote:

The OTD crowd has been saying such things for thousands of years already. The name of the belief that they claimed everyone would soon come to realize depended on the external circumstances specific to that time but the assumption was always the same.

S'Bchol Dor V'Dor oimdem alinu l'chalysanu

If you're going to go by that, Christianity is one such OTD movement, and had way more success than Judaism did over history and currently too.

Maya

Tue, Jun 13 2017, 4:04 pm

Oh, definitely. I also believe that statement is accurate, as do many in the community.

The people who are living double lives are doing so because of fear of their parents and social ostracism. But they are exposing their children to more than is often accepted, and they won't be upset if their own children becoming less frum, or non frum. This age of information is really messing with the culture and beliefs, and it'll only get more prevalent as more and more people get access to the internet.

ETA: Im speaking specifically about the Chassidish community. I don't know much about other cultures.

leah233

Tue, Jun 13 2017, 4:09 pm

amother wrote:

If you're going to go by that, Christianity is one such OTD movement, and had way more success than Judaism did over history and currently too.

I'm not sure if I get your point but one thing is certain there are no articles today about anyone going off the OTD claiming "I tried so hard to believe in Judaism but I couldn't escape the conclusion that Xtianty is true". However In the golden age of Spain when Xtianty was in vogue by the larger population of course that was what they all said.

I don't believe for a second that if the larger non-Jewish culture promoted Xtianty today like it did back then, the OTD crowd would still be turning to atheism. The same way that back then they ignored the scientific consensus which insisted to have established as a proven fact that the world has always existed.

The Rambam writes that Xtianty and Islam will last until Mosiach because (unlike most OTD movements) they believe in Torah M'Sinai

I will not post further on this thread.

Last edited by leah233 on Tue, Jun 13 2017, 4:37 pm; edited 1 time in total

simcha2

Tue, Jun 13 2017, 4:23 pm

I don't believe that everyone is faking it, but I do think that most people's connection to Hashem and yiddishkeit waxes and wanes. Sometimes it is easy to see Hashem's hand and what He wants. Other times it all seems a little "silly" (for want of a better word). Does Hashem really care if I wash my hands with a cup before eating bread etc.

I think when people are at that waning stage (which I think comes and goes throughout life), people fake it by continuing to practice in the same way even when they don't "feel" it. I actually think this is admirable.

Lizzie4

Tue, Jun 13 2017, 4:32 pm

No offense, but what a stupid premise. I hope that he discovers the error of his ways.

I don't know anyone who is always enthusiastic to do Mitzvos, netilas yadayim, tzedaka etc but they carry on doing Mitzvos, acting like a religious Jew should because that is how G-D wants us to live.

Are you saying that because the world is doomed to immorality and sin, we should all just let it all go?

This is the totally illogical justification for people who throw off the yoke of Torah and Mitzvos and want to make it right for themselves.

amother

Pewter

Tue, Jun 13 2017, 4:35 pm

Not sure what he means by faking. Does he mean practice or belief?
I am pretty much agnostic but I practice and I don't mind. For a brief time I considered going otd but the more time I spent with people like that, observing their world, the more my desire waned. It all seems so silly. We all need love and stability in our lives. Who cares how it's acheived? Why throw your life away so you can wear shorts?
I am definitely not obsessing about my kids upbringing the way most frum people I know. Just letting them be themselves I guess. I do think it may be precisely that relaxed attitude that'll make them want to remain frum. Who knows? Time will tell.

amother

Emerald

Tue, Jun 13 2017, 4:37 pm

leah233 wrote:

I'm not sure about articles - but Jews for JC continues to have influence. Perhaps mainly on the 'non-frum' but frum too.

Maya

Tue, Jun 13 2017, 4:52 pm

amother wrote:

I'm one of the people who are totally faking it. I don't think many of my friends and family are though.

Do they know that you are faking it?
If not, how would you know if any of them are?

debsey

Tue, Jun 13 2017, 5:10 pm

For all Moishe's reading of philosophy, he hasn't read much of logic.

"Everyone" is faking? Really?

I'm not.

There's a fallacy of thinking that "everyone is like me." You, and others you know, are faking. That doesn't mean "everyone" is.

I've read probably everything that Moishe and Yanky and Yissochar have read (my undergrad degree is in philosophy), and yet I still believe in Hashem.

This article makes it sound like if you read one philosophy book, it's all over. I personally think your frumkeit can only be strengthened by reading philosophy, if you have the right guidance on how to read it critically.

The issue here is that these guys - ironically- don't know enough. They know Gemarah, but how many mussar seforim have they read? They know chassidus, but how much machshava do they know? They don't know hashkafah, and they don't have a "Da Mah SheTashuv" when they encounter a philosophy text.

amother

Gray

Tue, Jun 13 2017, 5:18 pm

I definitely have my struggles, don't always follow Halacha as well as I should, sometimes get upset at God. But I definitely deeply believe. There is no question in my mind. Not faking at all. I hate faking. In all areas of my life.

FranticFrummie

Tue, Jun 13 2017, 5:37 pm

amother wrote:

Same here. I have tons of belief and faith, but my yetzer hara wants me to be a bit lazy with mitzvot.

DD admitted to me that she'd been faking it for years, and finally told me she's an atheist. While I'm not happy about it, at least she was brave enough to tell me the truth.