Do I punish dd for this behavior, if so, how?

Laiya

Thu, Jun 15 2017, 3:15 pm

amother wrote:

Actually, I pack her fresh food in the morning, because she likes fresh scrambled eggs, or pasta, or baked potaoes which tastes better fresh, rather than refrigerated and I want her to have fresh food. She also has the option of eating school lunch.
As far as the " nonsense", it was coloring, playing, or doing nothing at all.

I must say that I am so taken aback by the toughness of some of these responses. I clearly was not expecting these responses..ouch.

That's really sweet, and you sound like a really caring mother. We all have off days sometimes.

What works for me is to try to give over as much responsibility to my kids as they can handle.

For instance, I would make dd responsible for preparing her own lunch. This means, she would have to know, the night before, what she is planning to make in the morning. She would have to make sure that the frying pan is clean the night before (for eggs), and that there are eggs in the house. She would have to wake up early enough.

This way there are no power struggles.

I would discuss the change with her, and help her plan out the steps. And tell her that, since preparing her lunch is now her responsibility, you will not nudge her or nag her at all. You won't tell her to hurry up or ask her if she made it.

But you also won't be able to bring it to school if it's not done.

Maybe you can ask her (when you're both calm), what ideas she has in case one day her lunch isn't made (ex. that she brings some cash with her every day to buy school lunch--but best if she comes up with the solution on her own).

imasinger

Thu, Jun 15 2017, 3:16 pm

Loved chanchy's advice.

Two more tips.

1. Whenever I have a situation where I have told a child something important, and not gotten the expected response, I find it helpful to ask them to repeat back to me what they just said. Sometimes, this helps them process it better. And if the answer is still unexpected, I can follow up by asking why.

2. It's helpful to try to slant things sympathetically, and let the villain be circumstance. Hence, "oh, dear, I wish I could help you, I am swamped this morning, I feel so bad that you didn't hear me remind you before" is better for chinuch than "sorry, if you couldn't be bothered, then I can't be bothered, too bad on you."

Let the child learn to be angry at something other than you, and there is a better chance her behavior will change.

In this situation, OP, you might want to say to her, "I think we both owe each other an apology for this morning. I'll go first. I'm sorry I was unsympathetic, and that I embarrassed you in public...". Spend a few minutes discussing her hurt feelings, then say, "OK, your turn."

Sometimes, a child is not ready to apologize so quickly. If that's the case, I say, "OK. I'm still hurt, but I'll wait till you're ready."

If she doesn't spontaneously bring it up by bedtime, you can try again.

amother

Brunette

Thu, Jun 15 2017, 3:24 pm

I'm sorry for the tough responses. As if it is so obvious what you should be doing. Nobody even acknowledged how freaking annoying tweens can be (I'm not quite there yet with my own kids, but I taught middle school for a few years and I ended up quitting and have sworn never to set foot in a classroom again. It really is a nutty age!)
I think your biggest issue here is letting it get into a power struggle. You should at this age indeed be moving away from punishment and rather transferring responsibility to her hands. And avoid power struggles. Because that just gets everyone saying/doing things they shouldn't. You got some good ideas here. Hatzlacha.

Chayalle

Thu, Jun 15 2017, 3:25 pm

According to parenting mentors I've spoken with, we parents never seek to punish our children. Our job is to love them, and sometimes to allow certain natural consequences to occur as a result of their behavior.

I'm not sure why you packed her lunch if she responded "nothing" when you asked if she wanted lunch. If school lunch is an option, why would you pack her lunch if she isn't communicating that she wants it?

Your DD forgot her lunch and her papers, and didn't pack it after 3 reminders? She will have to go without that lunch and papers.

In terms of the chutzpah, I would first work on letting DD feel the consequences of her actions. Once you get that in place, you can have some discussions with her about what is it that causes her to speak disrespectfully. Dialogue can go a long way.

crust

Thu, Jun 15 2017, 3:27 pm

amother wrote:

Wow you seem like you are spreading yourself thin for your children!! Freshly cooked good in the morning? Paradise!!

Now on to your question.
A. What does chutzpahdig mean?
Definition needed beacase every one defines this word differently. If my 11 year old son doesn't obey me is that called chutzpah? or, does that mean; hello!! wake up! you are doing ineffective parenting... recalculate!!
His behavior would provoke me to think. But I can't call the behavior chutzpah.
Practically speaking I try to never get into such a spot because, I learned that the Posuk
V'lifnei or lo sitan michshol means that; If I am aware that this child will not obey me, I have an achrayis not to put the child in a spot of disobedience.
This means that with every command that I give, I potentially put my own child in a zone where it can sin if he doesn't obey.
So, I am careful with commands in general, thereby ruling out disobedience in first place.

B. I'm curious What type of punishment you would use for an 11 year old?
I'm trying to think; How would I punish an 11 year old? I guess I'd ask him where he wants to have a talk?
We would probably walk out of the house and discuss what happened and what we can both do so it we both know how to efficiently handle such situation next time.

gp2.0

Thu, Jun 15 2017, 4:45 pm

amother wrote:

This changes things, I was under the impression she would have to skip lunch.

Doesn't the school provide pasta every day? Making fresh food is your choice and you sound like a very devoted mom. But I would stop if it's too stressful to do it in the morning. Refrigerated food made the night before is just as fresh. She doesn't eat it until 4 hours later anyway.

If she chooses to play instead of doing what she needs to do, she suffers the consequences.

I still don't understand why play is being called "nonsense" but maybe that was just your frustrated tone in this post and you didn't actually say it to her.

amother

Peach

Thu, Jun 15 2017, 5:30 pm

gp2.0 wrote:

I sympathize with you OP. It's really hard to be giving, giving, giving to your kids & instead of appreciation, kid acts "spoiled" - she's not a baby, an eleven year old should be able to take responsibility for her actions/words and she should be saying thank you to her mom for preparing her lunch, instead of ignoring. And yes, it is ignoring, because even if she is involved in other things, if her mom is talking to her, she should stop & pay attention - that would be the respectful thing to do. I think the reason play is being called nonsense is because in the morning, girl should be getting ready for her day at school - there is a time for everything & coloring, etc should not be done in morning rush unless done with everything need & have a lot of extra time.

MagentaYenta

Thu, Jun 15 2017, 5:37 pm

amother wrote:

Ok you've laid down the law. What do you do about enforcing it? How would you have handled the OPs situation? You are sharing with us your ideal outcomes but how does one get there?

amother

Peach

Thu, Jun 15 2017, 5:47 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

Ok you've laid down the law. What do you do about enforcing it? How would you have handled the OPs situation? You are sharing with us your ideal outcomes but how does one get there?

You're right - I did not give any advice, but I think OP does deserve some sympathy. I'm not sure but I think others have given good advice - like putting more responsibility into her child's hands and child taking natural consequences if doesn't do what should be doing. Can speak to her about what you are prepared to do for her in the morning and what you expect her to be doing & then it's up to her to make things work for herself. If she needs help, she's welcome to talk to you respectfully about it, but it is in her hands.

SixOfWands

Thu, Jun 15 2017, 5:49 pm

Perhaps I'm a dunderhead, but there have been occasions on which I thought I packed everything I needed and then, after leaving home, realized I forgot something of greater or lesser importance. At times, I needed to return home. At other times, I lived without.

If your DD doesn't frequently forget things, I would have cut her slack about her papers, if I could have.

As to her comments, I suppose I'd give the speech. You know the one. I was very hurt and disappointed by what you said this morning. I understand that you were frustrated by the fact that you forgot your papers, and that you didn't bring lunch, but now that you're growing up, those are your responsibilities. If you want me to treat you like an adult, you need to act like one, in your actions and speech. Otherwise, I'll have to treat you like a child.

yksraya

Thu, Jun 15 2017, 7:26 pm

I think at 11 she wants to gain her own independents and is testing you. Instead of asking her if she wants lunch, give her choices. "Do you want the lunch I made, or money for school lunch, or make your own lunch". After that, it's up to her and if she forgets it, it's her natural consequence.

I think she woke up in a mood, afterall they are hormonal already at this age and don't handle it well yet. It's best to ignore the comments and not argue back or aknowledge it at all. She knows it is wrong, and the more you ignore it, the less she will do it.

amother

Crimson

Thu, Jun 15 2017, 7:26 pm

Op here. Firstly I did not tell her it was nonsense. I'm telling you what she did was nonsense. Because she was just wasting tme instead of doing what she was supposed to be doing.
As far as the lunches, lunch is included on tution. Because she wants to eat healthier than school lunches and is trying to lose some weight, I pre measure everything.
I make portions. I send healthy food. I'm actually going the extra mile, or so I thought.

As far as her papers that she left home, if I told her to pack up multiple times between the evening, and the morning, how much sympathy should I have had?

I could only imagine that had I written here that I drove her or her papers to school, everyone would have been telling me I was spoiling her, or she should have been more responsible. Apparently, you can't win here. Whatever I would have done would have been wrong!

Laiya

Thu, Jun 15 2017, 7:28 pm

Wanted to add, re daughter calling OP disgusting. I think it's important to give children the language to express their feelings.

It may be worth having a discussion, not just that name calling is hurtful, but it also doesn't communicate how you feel. And that dd's feelings are important to you. Telling you she's angry, instead, is ok.

MagentaYenta

Thu, Jun 15 2017, 7:31 pm

amother wrote:

'

Posters have given you credit for the care and thought you put into her meal prep. Did you not see those comments?

tichellady

Thu, Jun 15 2017, 7:38 pm

amother wrote:

You asked for advice but it sounds to me like you really wanted to vent and are not in a place to receive advice right now. I'm sorry that you are having a hard time with your daughter. It's a very hard age and girls this age can be very unfair towards their mothers.

marina

Thu, Jun 15 2017, 9:44 pm

OP- I'm TOTALLY with you.

My 11 year old decided she doesn't like the lunch I make so now she has to make her own lunch and if she doesn't make anything, she'll be hungry. If they forget lunch, I generally do not bring it to them, unless I'm in the area anyway.

And it's not acceptable to call your mom or anyone disgusting even if you are angry. I would- and do- give consequences for that. Sometimes I ask the child to come up with her own consequence, when she is calmer.

It's not about you and her relationship with you. It's that even when we are upset, we don't call others disgusting. We control our anger and we are careful with our words.

I would absolutely give a consequence for that, but prefer for it to be meaningful, like write up three ideas that you will try next time you are upset and want to lash out.

Last edited by marina on Thu, Jun 15 2017, 9:47 pm; edited 1 time in total