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Forum -> Parenting our children -> Teenagers and Older children
Do I punish dd for this behavior, if so, how?
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 16 2017, 9:55 am
Old fashioned voice of dissension here. No matter what happened, certain things are not negotiable. Calling your mother names is one. Calling your mother names in front of other people is worse yet. Yes, you punish. Let's make it more palatable for the touchy feelies and call it "creating clear consequences." A rose by any other name.

What you tell your dd and how you punish, err, deliver consequences, is up to you. But make no mistake, consequences there must be. It's called chinuch,
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 16 2017, 10:13 am
Can I just say I love, love, love Marina's take on this situation! Agree 100 percent! Natural consequences are, IME, always far more effective than random punishments.

I understand what some posters are saying about the DD's being unacceptable, but here's the problem I have:

Yes, it was unacceptable. So what? Adolescents, in particular, have completely inadequate filters between their brains and their mouths, and even the most well-mannered 11-year-old is occasionally going to let her mouth get ahead of her brain from time to time. In fact, adolescent brains are physiologically less able to exert impulse control and evaluate risk.

When a parent/teacher gets offended, hurt, or outraged by something an adolescent says, she's abdicating her role as an authority; she's lowering herself to the level of a peer. If you want to safeguard your role as a parent, don't act like a kid.

That means acting like Marina and staying above the fray. Impose natural consequences ("I'm afraid I won't be able to make emergency runs to school with forgotten items.") and move on with your life. If they have bad habits, help them change. Like the old anti-perspirant commercial, "Never let them see you sweat!"

And always remember this when dealing with kids of any age: no matter what, you're still cooler than they are.
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sushilover




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 16 2017, 10:15 am
I only give and I only accept respectful communication.

Before you begin, attune yourself to unacceptable behavior. When child speaks to you in a way that feels unpleasant, this is a sign to you that something has to change.
For most frum households, respectful behavior includes child not contradicting parent (say, "is it possible..." instead) and child (and parent) using a pleasant words and tone of voice.
Think of the target behavior you would like to see, and make sure it is reasonable . For example, you cannot expect child to accept a no happily, but you can expect her to just say "uch' and walk away.

Step 1: Teach
When child acts disrespectfully, it is not an emergency. There is no need to react until you have a plan. At a calm moment, speak to child about behavior. Outline what kind of behavior you would like to see in this house from now on.
Practice. Role play if child is young enough. For older children, you can talk about it, perhaps read books. Project Derech in Toronto has a program to teach proper behavior. There are DVDs called Chutzpah is Muktzah which can be good discussion starters.
Do step 1 for several days before going on to step 2

Step 2: Remind
When child reacts in a disrespectful way, show empathy for their underlying emotions. Name the emotions. Let them feel heard (emotional coaching).
When child is calmer, remind them what was discussed. ("Even when we feel frustrated, you must use pleasant and respectful words")
Ask them if they would like to try that now. If they cannot, it usually means they are not calm enough. Try again a different time.
If they replay the situation using respectful words, use Sarah Chanah's CLeaR method (Comment, Label, Reward)
Do step 2 for several days as well

Step 3:Prompt
Again, wait until child is a calm place (teaching moment) , after emotional coaching prompt her with "was that a respectful way of speaking?" or "was that a question?" Use CleaR method if they correct themselves after you prompted. (note, don't say," that was better". just comment on the proper behavior she displayed)
Do this step for a week or two

Step 4: Block
At this point, you no longer need to do emotional coaching after an episode. Halt the conversation with words like "excuse me, would you like to try that again?"
If child is in full tantrum mode, continue to block.

It's easy to get stuck in this step for years, but be sure to go on to the next step after a maximum of 3 weeks. (I admit, I am stuck on this step because my oldest corrects her behavior pretty quickly when I block her. I guess I need to move on...)

Step 5: 2-time rule
When child does the negative behavior, state without anger, "from now on, if you speak using disrespectful words, you will face {annoying consequence}"
The next time she does that behavior make sure she faces the consequence, even if she self-corrects as soon as she sees you mean business. Be empathetic in that case, you regret having to punish her, but you stick to your word.

Of course Sarah Chana has lots more to say about each of these steps, tips for using the CLeaR method, and how to deal with child whose behavior is out of the norm.
She answers questions on her facebook page...

Good luck everybody! This is not an easy job! But how amazing is it that you can give your child the tools to help him/her to treat everyone in his/her life with respect?


Last edited by sushilover on Fri, Jun 16 2017, 10:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 16 2017, 10:20 am
This sounds excellent, SushiLover! Thanks so much for taking the time to write this post.

I'm especially encouraged by the statement that "disrespect is not an emergency." DH and I have disagreed on that for years (he believes it's an extreme emergency while I always found it better to wait until everyone was calm).

Hatzlacha to everyone!
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MagentaYenta




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 16 2017, 10:22 am
Fox wrote:
This sounds excellent, SushiLover! Thanks so much for taking the time to write this post.

I'm especially encouraged by the statement that "disrespect is not an emergency." DH and I have disagreed on that for years (he believes it's an extreme emergency while I always found it better to wait until everyone was calm).

Hatzlacha to everyone!


I'm giving Fox a big ditto on this. Thumbs Up
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 16 2017, 10:36 am
marina wrote:
We had a situation just today when we went to buy bathing suits and my 13 year old couldn't find anything she liked so she demanded sandals instead and I said no and she had a meltdown.

I was super calm and spoke in a regular normal voice and told her that because she made my shopping experience unpleasant, I will give her a forty for her future bathing suit and sandal searches but will not be driving her anywhere for this particular shopping situation, she will need to walk or find a ride to buy these items on her own.

She was not happy, but that's a totally reasonable consequence.


It is a reasonable consequence. But ...

I'd also think about other things. Is this something that she does regularly, or was it a one-off. Was it a particularly frustrating or troubling trip for other reasons -- she found 6 suits she liked, but 5 weren't in her size, and the 6th was too expensive. She can no longer fit into kids's suits, and its scary for her/she still fits in kids' suits, and most of her friends don't. Then, assuming this was out of character, I would probably give it another try -- we ended the last trip because THIS. I'm willing to try one more time, provided that you THAT.

We also discuss our goals and expectations of shopping trips in advance. Particularly money.
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amother
Linen


 

Post Fri, Jun 16 2017, 10:38 am
Such blatent chutzpah (in public) needs a response. This child NEEDS your chinuch to grow into a person who is capable of civil communication and sustaining healthy relationships.

I would have a conversation with the child explaining this (when you are both calm) and ask HER to come up with a consequence and a written apology.
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amother
Coffee


 

Post Fri, Jun 16 2017, 10:41 am
Oy this 11 year old already had 2 punishments/consequences!!
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 16 2017, 10:44 am
Fox wrote:
Can I just say I love, love, love Marina's take on this situation! Agree 100 percent! Natural consequences are, IME, always far more effective than random punishments.

I understand what some posters are saying about the DD's being unacceptable, but here's the problem I have:

Yes, it was unacceptable. So what? Adolescents, in particular, have completely inadequate filters between their brains and their mouths, and even the most well-mannered 11-year-old is occasionally going to let her mouth get ahead of her brain from time to time. In fact, adolescent brains are physiologically less able to exert impulse control and evaluate risk.

When a parent/teacher gets offended, hurt, or outraged by something an adolescent says, she's abdicating her role as an authority; she's lowering herself to the level of a peer. If you want to safeguard your role as a parent, don't act like a kid.

That means acting like Marina and staying above the fray. Impose natural consequences ("I'm afraid I won't be able to make emergency runs to school with forgotten items.") and move on with your life. If they have bad habits, help them change. Like the old anti-perspirant commercial, "Never let them see you sweat!"

And always remember this when dealing with kids of any age: no matter what, you're still cooler than they are.


I agree 92.3%. But I'm still not agreeing re forgetting things for school, particularly if its not common.

My husband was once making a major purchase in another city, a couple of hours away. Before he left, I asked if he had everything he needed. He was annoyed; of course he did. Halfway there, he realized that what he had forgotten was the check. Yes, I got it to him, even though he should have remembered, and I reminded him. Because it was important, and sometimes, people mess up. That's just the way it works. And I'd do no less for a child. Not every day. Not for relatively trivial things. But if my husband can occasionally forget the check, my kid can occasionally forget that she left the paper that's due today on her desk, because she did some last minute edits after she packed everything else up, and still be rescued.
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tichellady




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 16 2017, 10:48 am
SixOfWands wrote:
I agree 92.3%. But I'm still not agreeing re forgetting things for school, particularly if its not common.

My husband was once making a major purchase in another city, a couple of hours away. Before he left, I asked if he had everything he needed. He was annoyed; of course he did. Halfway there, he realized that what he had forgotten was the check. Yes, I got it to him, even though he should have remembered, and I reminded him. Because it was important, and sometimes, people mess up. That's just the way it works. And I'd do no less for a child. Not every day. Not for relatively trivial things. But if my husband can occasionally forget the check, my kid can occasionally forget that she left the paper that's due today on her desk, because she did some last minute edits after she packed everything else up, and still be rescued.


Agreed!
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 16 2017, 11:13 am
SixOfWands wrote:
I agree 92.3%. But I'm still not agreeing re forgetting things for school, particularly if its not common.

Agree completely -- I was giving an example based on a regular problem.

And along those lines, I'll share this information: if you need to send a forgotten computer power cord to some distant city from Chicago, you can load up your five little kids in their pajamas and drive to O'Hare as late as midnight, where you can go to a special entrance, park, unload the five little kids, and give the cord to a nice man who works for FedEx, who will ensure that it is delivered to the offending DH in time for a 9 a.m. presentation. You can then reload the five little kids, drive home, park, and once again unload the five little kids and somehow herd them into bed.

Not that I hold a grudge or anything . . . LOL
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Ruchel




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 16 2017, 11:15 am
Sarah Chana Radcliffe definitely punishes. Read delicate balance. I give my kids more freedom than many in my circles, but I draw the line at getting insulted.
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Fox




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 16 2017, 11:28 am
I don't think anyone here believes that insulting one's mother is perfectly okay. The question is how to respond in a way that results in true chinuch rather than fruitless power struggles.
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farm




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 16 2017, 12:53 pm
BTW, why does the public nature of the comment make a difference? It would be chutzpah in private as well! If you think severity of the infraction is more because of the public nature, you are bringing in the mother's embarrassment or ego and your motives are no longer for chinuch.
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tichellady




 
 
    
 

Post Fri, Jun 16 2017, 12:55 pm
farm wrote:
BTW, why does the public nature of the comment make a difference? It would be chutzpah in private as well! If you think severity of the infraction is more because of the public nature, you are bringing in the mother's embarrassment or ego and your motives are no longer for chinuch.


I think it actually does make a difference. It's ok to tell your child that she embarrassed you. It's also ok to learn that arguments/hard conversations etc should be had in private, whether possible.
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amother
Hotpink


 

Post Fri, Jun 16 2017, 4:06 pm
There are 2 things that need to be done:
1) dd needs empathy. She need you to feel that she was stuck this morning (whether it was her fault or not.
2)she needs to hear from you that she cannot talk back to you.
When she comes home :
"Dd, how was your day at school?"
"What did you have for lunch?"
"I saw how frustrated you were this morning. What can we do tomorrow to prevent the same thing from happening?"

And after she vents.... I was a surprised and hurt how you answered back. Even when upset we need to be respectful. What could you have done differently?
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amother
Blush


 

Post Fri, Jun 16 2017, 4:38 pm
Fox wrote:
I don't think anyone here believes that insulting one's mother is perfectly okay. The question is how to respond in a way that results in true chinuch rather than fruitless power struggles.


Sadly, there are moms who've outright said to me it's OK for them to speak this way to their child, but not OK for the child to speak this way to the mother.
The double standard is so distasteful to me.
In addition, why is it ok for me to lose my cool at times (in the mother-child relationship), and not be punished (in the way a child gets punished), and I wouldn't cut my child the same slack I cut myself?
Why is my child any less deserving of mercy? Because I'm the big one and she the small one?

Because of my work I get to encounter more of these situations than I'd like to :-(
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