Feel Good Platitudes Vs. Halacha

pause

Sun, Jun 25 2017, 11:00 pm

Halacha isn't about making us feel good. It's about serving Him and doing what He wants.

Following halacha isn't always easy. Dracheha darkei no'am doesn't mean we're here to drink martinis on the beach, and that something that may require sacrifice on our part can't be part of what Torah demands from us...

We, with our limited human brains, can't decide what Hashem "would" or "wouldn't" want from us. We have halacha. And where the halacha isn't clear, we have rabbanim or poskim who will give us a ruling based on Torah's ways of assessing a situation and determining what takes priority over what.

And if you do decide for yourself that you are too weak, lazy, ignorant, unmotivated, vulnerable, etc. to find out the halacha or to follow the right way, fine. You'll deal with the fallout of that. But don't take it upon yourself for someone else.

/end soapbox lecture

shabbatiscoming

Mon, Jun 26 2017, 1:04 am

pause wrote:

Just because someone doent ask a rav when something may not be clear or not does not make them lazy, ignorant or unmotivated. It just means that their derech in life was taught to do things differently. I was never taught to go right to rav xyz if I dont know what to do. I was taught to try to fond the answers myself, to open sfarim, books, and to use my common sense. We all have common sense. And bh I learned many different halachot in school and sem and on my own and with my parents and with my husband.
And also, if we dont know what hashem may want or not want from us, in my world, that also includes rabbanim. They dont know what hashem wants from me either.
Pause, you and many others obviously grew up with the concept of dass torah. Myself and others did not grow up with that concept and therefor we do things differently. Again, that does not mean we are lazy or ignorant. I just means we live our yiddishkeit in a different way. Not a wrong way, but a different way.

PinkFridge

Mon, Jun 26 2017, 8:32 am

Pause, we're coming from the same place, I think, but I still wouldn't have written your post. But it's ok, you're entitled.

Here's what I would say, and it's based on something I heard recently that resonates for me as truth: When we love someone else, we want to do what makes the other happy. (And as I learned elsewhere in a series on the six constant mitzvos, yiras Hashem is the flip side: when we love someone we are very careful not to do something to upset the other, to bear their likes and dislikes in mind, to honor our commitments like picking up the dry cleaning before an important event.) If we have a mitzvah to love Hashem, we must have some idea of what He wants and we do, it's the Torah. Now, it's not so easy to say we always know, or that it always seems doable. But this is where I'm coming from.

And by virtue of qualifying for Imamother, I assume that others also see mitzvos as something we must do for this relationship. But I don't expect everyone to do exactly what I do and how I do it.

OK, pause, if you agree with the above, where do you go from here?

keym

Mon, Jun 26 2017, 9:16 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

I just want to point out that some people use the phrase "ask a rav" to mean ask a rav, open a sefer, listen to a shiur, discuss it with friends or parents, use common sense and a combination.
And yes asking a rav has become overused.
When I was a child, my parents discussed with a rav the ramifications of moving to a different town in which the orthodox day school situation left a lot to be desired. But it wasnt a psak, it was advice. They also asked advice from our teachers, older relatives etc.
Fast forward 20 years, I moved 2 blocks away. Same city, same grocery store, everything. But my parents were driving me crazy did you speak to a rav. No I didnt speak to a rav about a common sense thing. But were creating a culture of people scared to make any decisions, even little ones.
Ok. Rant over.

pause

Mon, Jun 26 2017, 9:20 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

My point was you need to find answers in the Torah or based on Torah. Especially when the situation is one that might require you to act against a well-established halacha or mitzva.

Common sense only takes us so far.

pause

Mon, Jun 26 2017, 9:27 am

keym wrote:

Yes. I clarified that in my post above.

If you would know where I'm coming from, you'd know I 1000% agree with every word.

But we are rationalizers and when we do something wrong (out of ignorance, laziness, lack of self-discipline), it becomes necessary to justify our behavior by using catch phrases such as common sense, it's what He would want, it can't be otherwise, or even misconstrue the meaning of pesukim to make us feel good.

marina

Mon, Jun 26 2017, 9:58 am

pause wrote:

Here's what I agree with: the point of life is to be good people, not to be happy. Hopefully, these will coincide most of the time, but sometimes they don't and then you have to make a choice.

Here's what I really disagree with: We use our limited brains all the time. In every moment of every day and of course also with halacha. If our rav tells us that Hashem wants us to leave a bowl of spaghetti under the bed for Eliayahu HaNavi every Tuesday, it is our limited human brains that will tell us this is a bunch of **** and that we need to find a new rav. That's because our sechel tells us that this is not what Hashem wants, no matter how much we like the rav.

This is why it bothers me when people start talking about blind faith. We just don't do that. If a rav tells me that I cannot use birth control even if I have PPD or cannot feed my 12 children, that is not a rav I will listen to and it's not because I'm weak, lazy, ignorant, unmotivated etc. It's for the same reason as the spaghetti- I don't think that's what God wants and if the rav says this is ratzon hashem, he's just wrong.

I tell this story all the time, but I was actually told by a rav (after having a boy and girl) that I cannot have a heter for birth control and instead I should just go to the mikvah a week later, so that I only have a week with my husband. This was garbage advice and it was my limited brain that told me that.

I'm sure almost everyone here would come to the same conclusion. But what about you OP? Would you question that advice or would you say hey, this is my rav, this is ratzon hashem and I don't want to be lazy or unmotivated or ignorant so I'll just go to mikvah a week later? Would you really ignore your common sense like that?

PinkFridge

Mon, Jun 26 2017, 10:25 am

marina wrote:

Funny, I just heard a very yeshivish rosh yeshiva tell bochrim that they need to think for themselves, that if he's asked about a shidduch, "Does he have a rav? Who does he go to?" he doesn't think that's up there with things to find out. And yet, maybe it's because of who he is and his common sense, that many of his bochrim have a strong ongoing kesher with him, and I know how he goes to bat for his boys. Maybe this is just a healthy version of aseh lecha rav, Idk.

But about your particular shaila, and I had a situation once, without going into details, that makes me appreciate your experience, I can't help but think of the famous story of the Brisker Rav. Someone asked him if he could be yotzei the arba kosos with milk, so the rav gave him money to help him avoid the shaila. Someone witnessing this asked the rav why he gave so much money, it was much more than he needed for wine. The rav said, If he was asking about milk for the arba kosos, it's obvious he doesn't have money for a fleishig shulchan oreich, either.

It is important that when one asks the thorny shailos in life, she feels that the rav will really takes as a holistic approach as possible. If a rav feels compelled to say that he can't be matir, then he should find ways to give the asker the ongoing chizuk she'd need to pull it off.

Maybe the world is too big for these kinds of relationships.

Chayalle

Mon, Jun 26 2017, 10:39 am

PinkFridge wrote:

I read an article that stated that a Bochur who went to E"Y to learn in yeshiva, wrote a letter to R' Hutner z'tzl stating his daily schedule. R' Hutner wrote back that that schedule sounds really packed; he asked him, when do you think?

I sometimes feel that there's a deficit in this regard in some yeshivos. Boys need to learn to spend time with themselves - to think. Self-awareness needs to be promoted. When I pray for shidduchim for my girls, I think of this - that they should find spouses who know how to use their own brains.

yksraya

Mon, Jun 26 2017, 10:52 am

marina wrote:

I disagree a bit with the bolded. Hashem wants us to be "good and happy ppl" he wants us to serve him with simcha.

The rest of your post I totally agree with, and am very shocked a rav would tell you to go to mikva a wk later. Talk abt screwed up...