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Forum -> Judaism -> Halachic Questions and Discussions
Feel Good Platitudes Vs. Halacha
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 27 2017, 8:23 am
Ugh we all pasken on our own all the time. My kid washes a cold yogurt spoon in the clean empty meat sink and I pasken for myself that this is not a problem. Pple who call their rav about that must be very annoying.
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amother
Indigo


 

Post Tue, Jun 27 2017, 8:25 am
amother wrote:
Can you explain what you mean and why this is connected to the OP?


Not the one who wrote it, though IMO it is more connected to the OP then the spin-off that has gone on regarding what is considered asking a Rav etc.

I understand the OP to be about the rationalizing that goes on that obviously Hashem doesn't demand that of us or didn't mean it in that way because it's too hard or doesn't make sense or sounds cruel. We don't always understand Hashem's ways, but we can't base halacha on what's comfortable for us.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 27 2017, 8:28 am
pause wrote:
The final decision of your actions cannot be based solely on your feelings.


Honestly, this doesn't make practical sense. My feelings/ cognitive faculties told me that this psak from this rav was idiotic and so I went somewhere else. That is the final decision of my actions.

You are saying things but they are not specific enough to really differentiate. What does that mean "final decision of your actions" ? Obv all frum Jews don't just rely on their feelings - otherwise everyone would eat pork all day if they felt like it. So what are you saying that is new and different?

What I am saying is that blind faith is not what anyone really practically does so preaching that we all have to just check our common sense at the door - as your original post implied - makes no sense.
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 27 2017, 8:31 am
amother wrote:
. Also colors for a nida is severely complicated because it's mesorah and no you can't learn colors from a Sefer it's from one generation to another and very complicated. Need I say I just rely on rabbonim.



Do rabbonim make mistakes? Yes

Are they human? Yes

this is our nitzchiyus. Am ysiroel is survived by keeping the Torah through our gedolim.


1. Can you clarify if you ask a niddah shailah every single time? For every single bedika with anything on it? Or just for those that you are not sure about?

2. And also how do you if the rav made a mistake if you just follow him? How would you know if rabbonim make mistakes?
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pause




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 27 2017, 12:40 pm
marina wrote:
Honestly, this doesn't make practical sense. My feelings/ cognitive faculties told me that this psak from this rav was idiotic and so I went somewhere else. That is the final decision of my actions.

You are saying things but they are not specific enough to really differentiate. What does that mean "final decision of your actions" ? Obv all frum Jews don't just rely on their feelings - otherwise everyone would eat pork all day if they felt like it. So what are you saying that is new and different?

What I am saying is that blind faith is not what anyone really practically does so preaching that we all have to just check our common sense at the door - as your original post implied - makes no sense.

I understand from this that you went to a different rav who hopefully guided you more sensibly.

Final decisions of your actions means how you ultimately act. For you, it would mean eating pork. For others, there are other halachos. I am avoiding specifics because I don't want to pick on any individual post or poster which prompted this thread.

I do not endorse blind faith. I don't either think our religion endorses that.
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SpottedBanana




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 27 2017, 12:52 pm
marina wrote:
1. Can you clarify if you ask a niddah shailah every single time? For every single bedika with anything on it? Or just for those that you are not sure about?

2. And also how do you if the rav made a mistake if you just follow him? How would you know if rabbonim make mistakes?


How does anyone know if their rav makes a mistake? Or their doctor? Or their plumber? Like anything else in life, either you go for a second opinion (for rabbis this is called "rabbi-shopping" and not usually considered the spirit of the law but sometimes it might be warranted like in your "go to mikvah a week late" story), or you don't! End of story -- lo bashamayim hi (as in the famous case of R' Elazar and the oven), rabbanim do their best, and we trust them except in absurd cases (I've actually never heard of a psak as crazy as the one you posted).

I guess I really don't understand why people don't trust rabbanim. Why is it different from trusting anyone else? To me, a non-rabbi trying to pasken a complicated situation from the Shulchan Aruch (like shabbatiscoming was talking about) is like a non-MD trying to diagnose themselves from WebMD Confused I just don't understand.
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amother
Khaki


 

Post Tue, Jun 27 2017, 1:00 pm
SpottedBanana wrote:
How does anyone know if their rav makes a mistake? Or their doctor? Or their plumber? Like anything else in life, either you go for a second opinion (for rabbis this is called "rabbi-shopping" and not usually considered the spirit of the law but sometimes it might be warranted like in your "go to mikvah a week late" story), or you don't! End of story -- lo bashamayim hi (as in the famous case of R' Elazar and the oven), rabbanim do their best, and we trust them except in absurd cases (I've actually never heard of a psak as crazy as the one you posted).

I guess I really don't understand why people don't trust rabbanim. Why is it different from trusting anyone else? To me, a non-rabbi trying to pasken a complicated situation from the Shulchan Aruch (like shabbatiscoming was talking about) is like a non-MD trying to diagnose themselves from WebMD Confused I just don't understand.


I think the OP was getting at people who 'do whats right for them' pushing halacha to the side, not people who do halachic research themselves, or don't trust rabbanim.

I think she was taking aim at people who hug members of the opposite gender (whats the harm? its normal practice in our community) or who don't keep niddah harachot (that are considered by most to be halacha) because 'it works for us'. People who choose selectively ignore halacha and just go by what 'feels good' to them.
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pause




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 27 2017, 2:39 pm
amother wrote:
I think the OP was getting at people who 'do whats right for them' pushing halacha to the side, not people who do halachic research themselves, or don't trust rabbanim.

I think she was taking aim at people who hug members of the opposite gender (whats the harm? its normal practice in our community) or who don't keep niddah harachot (that are considered by most to be halacha) because 'it works for us'. People who choose selectively ignore halacha and just go by what 'feels good' to them.

Yes. Smile

I was trying to avoid specific examples though... Confused
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tichellady




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 27 2017, 2:47 pm
I don't understand the point of this thread at all. what exactly are you hoping to accomplish here? People who don't follow halakha very strictly generally know that they don't follow it very strictly. They have other values that they put above following halakha strictly. I'm not sure how this thread is going to change anyone's mind about what they value.
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pause




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 27 2017, 2:52 pm
tichellady wrote:
I don't understand the point of this thread at all. what exactly are you hoping to accomplish here? People who don't follow halakha very strictly generally know that they don't follow it very strictly. They have other values that they put above following halakha strictly. I'm not sure how this thread is going to change anyone's mind about what they value.


That's the problem.

Now if that's what you decide, fine. But you shouldn't be advocating for others to go against halacha because of other values that *you* put above following halacha.
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tichellady




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 27 2017, 3:07 pm
pause wrote:
That's the problem.

Now if that's what you decide, fine. But you shouldn't be advocating for others to go against halacha because of other values that *you* put above following halacha.


To be clear, this isn't about me and I'm not sure where you really see that on imamothrr, but I'm not on every thread.
I understand why you think that on imamother women shouldn't advocate for non halakhic solutions, but in life, well that's a different story.

I also think that " halakha" means very different things to different people. I don't see halakha as black and white, yes and no, but as more complex and subtle. For example, women on this site have learned the laws of tzniut as a dress code, certain colors, lengths, materials of clothing etc. others learned it as a concept like "humility" with no defined terms, but dressing and conducting yourself with dignity and modesty. So when someone on imamother says that she wants to start wearing pants or wearing short sleeves the women from the first group think she's going against halakha because they view short sleeves as not fitting the modesty dress code, whereas the women in the second group think " why does long sleeves= modesty? My rebebtzin wears short sleeves and trousers and is the most modest person I know. Of course, in our day and age, short sleeves can be considered modest dress. " so these two groups of women are approaching this conversation from a very different viewpoint
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tichellady




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 27 2017, 3:22 pm
One more thought: the way you are describing halakha is very much that it is set and we have to follow it. I have learned that sometimes halakha changes because of the needs of the community. And I remember in high school learning about one rabbi ( or maybe it was the tosafists) who tried to explain why certain things community members were doing that would be assumed to be halakhically problematic were actually ok halakhically. I remember finding this fascinating and now I want to explore this concept more. I wish I remembered more
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marina




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 27 2017, 3:52 pm
Ok, here's my basic question: Why is it ok for me to say "well that rav who said go to mikvah a week late, he's ignorant and I won't follow his psak and will look to someone else instead" but it is not ok for me to say " well that rav who said I can't give my cousin a hug is ignorant and I won't follow his psak and will look to someone else instead" ?

What is really the difference? The level of acceptability of the psak? What does that depend on? What everyone else does?
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tichellady




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 27 2017, 3:58 pm
marina wrote:
Ok, here's my basic question: Why is it ok for me to say "well that rav who said go to mikvah a week late, he's ignorant and I won't follow his psak and will look to someone else instead" but it is not ok for me to say " well that rav who said I can't give my cousin a hug is ignorant and I won't follow his psak and will look to someone else instead" ?

What is really the difference? The level of acceptability of the psak? What does that depend on? What everyone else does?


I have seen women on this site criticize "rabbi shopping", but I agree with you, and don't see why it's different from getting a second opinion ( like people do with doctors). finding a rabbi who you feel truly will work with you to find an acceptable solution to your issue seems very reasonable to me.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 27 2017, 5:04 pm
marina wrote:
Ok, here's my basic question: Why is it ok for me to say "well that rav who said go to mikvah a week late, he's ignorant and I won't follow his psak and will look to someone else instead" but it is not ok for me to say " well that rav who said I can't give my cousin a hug is ignorant and I won't follow his psak and will look to someone else instead" ?

What is really the difference? The level of acceptability of the psak? What does that depend on? What everyone else does?


Because you might not have known of them but there were rabbanim whom you could have consulted who would have ok'd bc. Maybe short term, maybe not but they wouldn't have told you an option that could wreck shalom bayis.

As far as the hug, fine, find a rav who will matir the hug. It might mean moving to an entirely different community, changing schools, etc. I've learned enough fundamentals of halacha to know that a rav who says no to hugging cousins isn't ignorant but consistent, and that ultimately, if you project deracheha darchei noam all around, if your cousin gets bent out of shape because you won't hug him, it's his problem. (And I won't conjecture that he'd have no problem respecting say, a Muslem woman who wouldn't socially hug.)
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