S/O Why doesn't it bother me that it's a man's world?

amother

Mint

Fri, Jun 30 2017, 8:41 am

So many people (not just real feminists) seem to be so bothered that we live in a man's world. I'm trying to understand why this truly does not bother me? I feel bad for men. The responsibility of supporting the family ultimately falls on them. Frum men have to go to Shul three times a day, wake up early even on shabbos, pressure to learn... what's to be envious about? For the record, I have a career and work full time, and I don't enjoy sitting around w other women talking about recipes and fashion. So I'm not just a trophy wife who wants to be completely taken care of (although sometimes that sounds nice). And I don't love every single thing about how men can get away with certain things that we can't. But other than that, I just don't get it.

HeartyAppetite

Fri, Jun 30 2017, 8:48 am

Neither do I. I don't have to be THE BEST. Though I don't even see it like men are better or first class. I am perfectly happy to be a women. I wouldn't have patience to go to shul, daven three times a day or sit and learn. I am happy I don't have to go out and work 8 + hours a day. I work from at home part time doing something I love, and my biggest pleasure is taking care of my baby.

I so don't mind being behind the scenes. Why would I NEED to be upfront and center stage? Again, I don't see it like that though.

amother

Apricot

Fri, Jun 30 2017, 9:00 am

it does not bother me either. I don't love being a woman what with all PMS, pregnancy, labor, PP and all the housework and most of childrearing (in addition to working), but I don't feel like it's a biased world in favor of men. intellectually in know that it is. I.e. a male employee will make a lot more than me for doing the exact same job but I'm okay with that.
imo, men get away with a lot because they have to daven/learn and bring in parnasa but it's not something I spend time dwelling on or something that bothers me. it is what it is.

mommy3b2c

Fri, Jun 30 2017, 9:05 am

amother wrote:

You don't have to get it. We all have things that matter to us and things that don't. As long as you don't tell someone that you feel sorry for her because she's so obviously mistaken, no big deal.

On the contrary, I am repeatedly told that I am obviously mistaken.

(I am not the op, but I agree with her.)

I stopped bringing sources of how women are not considered inferior. It's useless. Every single one is shot down as apologetics. I'm told to just accept that I'm inferior.

Chayalle

Fri, Jun 30 2017, 9:07 am

amother wrote:

I a male employee will make a lot more than me for doing the exact same job but I'm okay with that.

In my profession and the corporate world I work in, that happens to not be true. I don't think the men earn more than the women - it's pretty much based on skills, experience, etc...my manager is female, and so is the person on top of her.

However, this is true in the frum world and I am not okay with that. My younger sister does the same thing I do - she's a computer programmer. She started off working in a frum company, and pretty soon she was doing the lions share of support. The business grew and he hired a few young men that she helped train in (she actually worked from home and trained them in over skype and phone). Then he hired a male manager for the office, because CH"V that she should be the manager. His expectation was that she would train the manager, who knew nothing of the business and processes. So guess what? She left for a better job, and he was shocked, and was left with a manager who did not know the business, and a bunch of new guys, that he then had to train in himself....

mommy3b2c

Fri, Jun 30 2017, 9:08 am

Chayalle wrote:

Good for her!

But it's not always like that in the frum world. My husband pays his employees based on skill, not on gender.

amother

Magenta

Fri, Jun 30 2017, 9:09 am

amother wrote:

I'm the OP from the other thread and I suspect what it comes down to are different types of personalities. Each of us see and feel a different aspect of reality based on our perspectives, emotions, background and personality.

Exactly. My nature is such that I really do not enjoy being the center of attention. I don't even enjoy big celebrations in my honor (like birthday party for example), and feel most comfortable being behind the scene. I am very accomplished professionally (doctorate degree) and work full time, and although I do not dislike my work, I do not get nearly as much satisfaction from my professional accomplishments as I do from baking challah or doing homework with my kids. I am incidentally a BT, and upon discovering orthodox judaism, I was pleasantly surprised that my feelings on the matter were finally validated. Prior to that I always used to feel guilty for not being feministic enough so to speak, as every woman at my professional level that I knew was very feministic and I thought there was smth wrong with me for being so different.

amother

Apricot

Fri, Jun 30 2017, 9:12 am

Chayalle wrote:

that is tough and unfair. I feel bad she had a bad experience. this has not been my experience BH and what my male co worker gets on his paycheck is of little interest to me.

what would interest me is having a metabolism like a man. they can eat like a horse and stay slim while I.... LOL

Fox

Fri, Jun 30 2017, 9:13 am

Because you're honest with yourself.

None of us fits perfectly into rigid gender roles -- that was what the feminist movement was supposed to be about. But just because you hate to cook doesn't mean you'd feel more fulfilled davening with a minyan three times a day and learning Gemara every night. Or maybe you would feel more fulfilled davening with a minyan but your soul would eroded by the stress of providing for your family.

I think most of us have felt the way the OP of the other thread describes, and I think it has less to do with gender than with age and stage of life.

One day, you're an unmarried young woman who davens regularly from a siddur and maybe goes to shiurim, gets involved with chesed projects, and feel a tremendous connection to Hashem through all of it.

The next day -- or so it seems -- you're knee-deep in diapers, pacifiers, shrieking toddlers, and squabbling kids. Your siddur is covered in dust, if you even know where it is, and your informal tefilla is along the lines of, "Dear G-d, please let them go to sleep!"

The problem is not that your life lacks spirituality. The problem is that the "man's world" (or patriarchy, if you prefer) as influenced by Greek philosophy keeps us from seeing how much Hashem values diapers, juice boxes, and the mayhem that accompanies childrearing.

I didn't bother responding to the other thread -- the word "apologetics" had already been tossed into the ring. But I personally have no difficulty believing that Hashem values the grind of childrearing more than the most heartfelt tefillos uttered in shul, and I think a lot of men would happily trade their religious responsibilities for the opportunity to stay home and spend time with their kids.

Fox

Fri, Jun 30 2017, 9:30 am

mommy3b2c wrote:

I personally feel bad for men. I would hate to be one.

Agreed, and I think it's much harder to raise boys in a woman's world.

In fact, there's an increasing body of evidence that suggests that, in secular terms, men are falling behind women in an increasing number of significant ways:

* Poorer school performance and higher drop-out rates;
* Boys more likely to be diagnosed with various behavioral and neurological disorders -- and medicated in order to do better in school;
* Fewer men attend college -- some coed colleges are as much as 70 percent female;
* Better lifetime wages associated with higher-risk, higher-mortality jobs;
* Women better at soft people skills -- and jobs requiring these are the ones increasing in numbers;
* Young men increasingly avoiding relationships because they feel unable to meet women's expectations.

Basically, if the patriarchy wants to keep oppressing us, it had better turn off the video games and get cracking!

marina

Fri, Jun 30 2017, 10:03 am

Ugh, Here we go again.

Feminism is not about being better than men or going to work instead of staying home or baking challah instead of reviewing spreadsheets.

Feminism, above all else, is about choice. If you have real, meaningful choice about whether to go to work or stay home, whether to share the housecleaning or take it all upon yourself, whether to have 10 children or none, - if you have that choice, feminism's work is done.

Yes, sometimes it happens that people say they have choice and I'm not really sure they do. They say, for example, that they choose not to drive a car in Williamsburg, but I don't know if this is a real free choice or one which their society pressures them into. Same with staying home, breastfeeding etc. Sometimes society pressures women into feeling like awful people if they don't choose bottles and working or whatever combination works for them and then they don't really have meaningful choice.

Fox, feel free to go off about third-wave feminism and the horrors of intersectionality, but I stand by what I've always said: Feminism cares most that you have options, it cares much less which one you choose.

tigerwife

Fri, Jun 30 2017, 10:09 am

Chayalle wrote:

Ha, I love this story. I still see red when I remember about the guy I was training in- I found out that his starting salary was more than my salary after years of experience.

daagahminayin

Fri, Jun 30 2017, 10:22 am

marina wrote:

Feminism cares most that you have options, it cares much less which one you choose.

https://youtu.be/704rCb2mWUM

The person arguing with Mayon Bialik agrees with you. And it made me realise that feminism is a value (women should have choice) that needs to interact with other moral values - it can't be overriding.