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How could pre feminist women have thought...
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ally




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 05 2017, 3:29 pm
amother wrote:
Is capacity the argument?

I'm not sure what the argument is
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amother
Tan


 

Post Wed, Jul 05 2017, 3:36 pm
I'm probably very naive, so forgive my naivete:
As I see it, religion is the epitome of patriarchy.
The world in general is steeped patriarchy. It's been this way for millennia.
It's how it is.
What is the argument here about?
Can someone enlighten me please? What am I not getting?
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youngishbear




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 05 2017, 3:41 pm
Hm. I like the distinction of capable vs permitted.

I can accept the latter if it's not made dependent on the former.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 05 2017, 4:40 pm
amother wrote:
I'm not a feminist because I have no problem accepting that women are different and have a different role . I can accept that a single boy who is spending his whole day learning is doing something of more value that a single girl who isn't etc. But the examples I gave imply that are women are almost worthless. You don't have to be a feminist to be appalled by it.


Is the single boy doing more than the working man who is ehrlich and, if he's lucky, doing something meaningful to society?
Each person is doing what s/he's supposed to be doing.
Last year Rabbi Reisman had a series of shiurim on Yissachar and Zevulun. One featured Rav Schwab's views over the years. When he was young and profoundly moved by what he saw in Lithuanian yeshivos, he was a champion of learning as a lechatchila. Over the years, as seen in his collected speeches, he was profoundly moved and eloquently wrote of his kehilla, the loyal, consistent soldiers who do the ratzon Hashem. The upshot is not so much which is the lechatchila, Torah alone vs. TIDE, as much as, whatever you are doing, do in a lechatchila way.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 05 2017, 4:47 pm
amother wrote:
op I shall add more to your confusion. when I was young, say, 10-12 and it was shabbos before the meal and all of us had to go wash for challah, since I am a twin to a brother other people in the family would say to me your brother should go first "hes a boy". what utter ridiculousness! and that is after my father saying how important women are. that they are like the kohen gadol bla bla blah.....

yes women have value. the poeple who dont believe it or are mysogynists are sick and they have the problem. all these people with all these ridiculous comments just show how much they valued themselves. op never mind what they said. we all know the truth, and it says in the torah that the jewish identity is from the mother. now talk about value!

dont let them put you down. they dont value themselves well so they put others down.

I vaguely remember this Kids Speak story about the baby in the family who was so upset about always being last for things. Washing didn't go from youngest to oldest? Whoever was the younger twin should wash first.
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 05 2017, 5:41 pm
zaq wrote:
How can you say so? Did you not read the thread about I.Want.A.Girl? There were women who did not want girls at all. Yes, 21st century women currently of child bearing age.


Really, I think those women were making themselves feel better about not having daughters. I can't afford a cruise so I tell myself I will get seasick.
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unexpected




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 05 2017, 10:46 pm
There is actually a halacha that if a man knows his wife is expecting before 40 days he should daven for a boy
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amother
Amber


 

Post Wed, Jul 05 2017, 10:48 pm
unexpected wrote:
There is actually a halacha that if a man knows his wife is expecting before 40 days he should daven for a boy


Source?
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unexpected




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 05 2017, 10:51 pm
I don't know. S/t my husband always said
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amother
Amethyst


 

Post Wed, Jul 05 2017, 11:07 pm
amother wrote:
Source?


Brachos 60a https://www.sefaria.org/Berakhot.60a?lang=bi


We learned in the mishna: One whose wife was pregnant and he said: May it be God’s will that my wife will give birth to a male child, it is a vain prayer.
ולא מהני רחמי מתיב רב יוסף (בראשית ל, כא) ואחר ילדה בת ותקרא את שמה דינה מאי ואחר אמר רב לאחר שדנה לאה דין בעצמה ואמרה י"ב שבטים עתידין לצאת מיעקב ששה יצאו ממני וארבעה מן השפחות הרי עשרה אם זה זכר לא תהא אחותי רחל כאחת השפחות מיד נהפכה לבת שנא' ותקרא את שמה דינה אין מזכירין מעשה נסים
Is a prayer in that case ineffective? Rav Yosef raises an objection based on a baraita: It is stated: “And afterwards she bore a daughter, and called her name Dina” (Genesis 30:21). The Gemara asks: What is meant by the addition of the word: Afterwards? What does the verse seek to convey by emphasizing that after the birth of Zebulun she gave birth to Dina? Rav said: After Leah passed judgment on herself and said: Twelve tribes are destined to descend from Jacob, six came from me and four from the maidservants, that is ten, and if this fetus is male, my sister Rachel will not even be the equivalent of one the maidservants; immediately the fetus was transformed into a daughter, as it is stated: And she called her name Dina; meaning she named her after her judgment [din]. The Gemara rejects this: One does not mention miraculous acts to teach general halakha.
ואיבעית אימא מעשה דלאה בתוך ארבעים יום הוה כדתניא שלשה ימים הראשונים יבקש אדם רחמים שלא יסריח משלשה ועד ארבעים יבקש רחמים שיהא זכר מארבעים יום ועד שלשה חדשים יבקש רחמים שלא יהא סנדל משלשה חדשים ועד ששה יבקש רחמים שלא יהא נפל מששה ועד תשעה יבקש רחמים שיצא בשלום
The Gemara introduces an alternative explanation: And if you wish, say instead that the story of Leah and her prayer with regard to the fetus was within forty days of conception. As it was taught in a baraita: During the first three days after intercourse, one should pray that the seed not putrefy, that it will fertilize the egg and develop into a fetus. From the third day until the fortieth, one should pray that it will be male. From the fortieth day until three months, one should pray that it will not be deformed, in the shape of a flat fish, as when the fetus does not develop it assumes a shape somewhat similar to a flat sandal fish. From the third month until the sixth, one should pray that it will not be stillborn. And from the sixth month until the ninth, one should pray that it will be emerge safely. Therefore, during the first forty days from conception, one may still pray to affect the gender of the fetus.
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 06 2017, 3:37 am
Interestingly, while the baraita says that a man should pray for a boy until day 40, Shulchan Aruch (OC 230:1) only says that he may not after day 40, but does not obligate him to.

https://www.sefaria.org/Shulch.....ng=bi

Here's a suggestion that in light of current science, one shouldn't pray to change the gender even before 40 days.

http://lookstein.org/lookjed/r.....ote=1
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Ema of 5




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 06 2017, 7:27 am
amother wrote:
Due to my ambivalence and uncertainty on the topic I didn't post on any of the threads about how women are regarded in the frum world.( I personally view the issue in the larger context of "why is life unfair?")

But this is a question that has always bothered me. I remember women who had grown in the early part of the 20th century. They seemed very OK with regarding women as inferior. To give but a few examples (1)my great aunt had a granddaughter and commented "It is not so bad that they had a girl this time. They already have three boys" (2) My grandmother once very neutrally commented "They were extremely upset they had a girl" (3) In seminary I knew a girl who said that her grandmother tells her grandfather as a (morbid) endearment "I'll be lucky to be your stepping stool in Gan Eden"

None of the women referred to above were stupid or pushovers and none of them had a Bais Yaakov education or were particularly frum. Yet they seemed to have no issue with thinking that way. Why not? I'm no feminist and I'm appalled at these concepts. Why weren't they? No one told them to say or think such things. They just took for granted that this the way the world works. How?

I am not a feminist, nor am I someone whose way of life relegates me to being a second class citizen. I honestly don't see the problem with these comments. In fact, I think the last one is actually pretty amazing. The husband was saying to the wife hat he doesn't even come close to her. He may have worded it in an odd way, but he was saying "my gan eden won't even come close to yours." Not sure how putting her so high above him can be seen as regarding her as inferior. In terms of the baby comments I really don't see the problem. I've heard the same thing about a boy- "it's ok, they already have (x number) of girls." You yourself said the comment about being disappointed it was a girl was neutral. To be honest, when I had a girl a little over a month after my grandfather died, I was disappointed. Very disappointed. That doesn't mean I didn't love my baby girl to the moon and back, it just means I was very sad that I couldn't name her after my grandfather. Yes, we gave her a name that is similar, but it's not HIS name.
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amother
Amethyst


 

Post Thu, Jul 06 2017, 8:47 am
eema of 3 wrote:
I am not a feminist, nor am I someone whose way of life relegates me to being a second class citizen.


Without feminism - you would be a second class citizen.
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Ema of 5




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 06 2017, 9:04 am
amother wrote:
Without feminism - you would be a second class citizen.

I didn't say I'm anti feminism. Theres a difference.
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 06 2017, 9:06 am
eema of 3 wrote:
To be honest, when I had a girl a little over a month after my grandfather died, I was disappointed. Very disappointed. That doesn't mean I didn't love my baby girl to the moon and back, it just means I was very sad that I couldn't name her after my grandfather. Yes, we gave her a name that is similar, but it's not HIS name.


I don't think you were disappointed that she was a girl; you were disappointed that you couldn't name her for your grandfather, which is not at all the same thing. As an analogy: I entered a raffle and won a gorgeous evening gown. Not the blue one that I hoped to win and wear to my dc wedding, but the green one that I will wear to a different simcha because it doesn't match my dc wedding color scheme. Am I disappointed I won the green gown? Not at all. It's stunning and I will enjoy wearing it. I'm just disappointed I can't wear it to this particular simcha.

I hope that those of you who are disappointed in your dc gender, eye color, hair texture, nose shape or anything else are wise enough never, ever, to let that slip to ANYONE.
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leah233




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 06 2017, 9:16 am
eema of 3 wrote:
In fact, I think the last one is actually pretty amazing. The husband was saying to the wife hat he doesn't even come close to her. He may have worded it in an odd way, but he was saying "my gan eden won't even come close to yours." Not sure how putting her so high above him can be seen as regarding her as inferior.


If was the wife who said who it to the husband.
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Ema of 5




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 06 2017, 9:41 am
leah233 wrote:
If was the wife who said who it to the husband.

My mistake, I thought it was the other way around. I still see it as a respect thing though, not as being second class.
There are numerous examples throughout our history of women being anything but second class citizens, starting with women in tanach.
I am bowing out of this conversation, because I clearly don't agree with the women here.
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amother
Amethyst


 

Post Thu, Jul 06 2017, 10:14 am
eema of 3 wrote:
I didn't say I'm anti feminism. Theres a difference.


I'm not sure what that difference is. You may not be actively shouting for more rights... but you are living a life that the feminist movement made possible... otherwise you would in fact be a second class citizen.

The theme throughout many of these posts is (and not just from you) "I'll accept in-equal opportunity within my religious life... because outside of religious ritual, I have the same rights and opportunities as the men in my family"... and further, despite the ritual restrictions my family treats me with respect.

Without feminism, this statement would not be possible.

Religious feminists, however, have trouble accepting the inopportunity in religious life and seek ways to remedy that.
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amother
Babypink


 

Post Thu, Jul 06 2017, 10:37 am
OP, When I was in my twenties and heard the way those women of the previous generation g talked about their husbands, I was horrified.
Now I am in my fifties, and a little wiser, and I can tell you that those women were much happier and s aw more nachas from their families than the ones who didn't respect their husbands as much.
I don't know if it is because they were just more accepting by nature or because their attitude created more Sholom Bayis, but the facts will show this to be the case.
Hashem has his program for the world. No way I can be like the women of old,and it is not expected of us today. Those women I am referring to did not work outside the home and today almost all of us do. Their husbands didn't do any child care or housework and that has changed completely as well.
I'm sure things will keep changing and women will have more opportunities in many spheres. That's just the way the world is moving. But we do give up a certain simplicity that some (not all) of our grandmothers had. And stress has skyrocketed since then.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 06 2017, 10:45 am
My grandmother was a fountain of such "wisdom". Rolling Eyes

I'll never forget this gem of advice: "Don't go getting independent. Men don't like that."
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