Does Hatzalah train to save men before women?

amother

Black

Mon, Jul 10 2017, 11:24 am

dancingqueen wrote:

Wow, I would think aguna of all women would be most resentful of men having all the decision making power in halachic Judaism. I've heard many posit that if men were the ones who were agunim a halachic loophole would have been found already.

Hugs for your situation, I hope you are freed soon.

Thank you and I hope so too.
But I dont see it as men having decision makling power. If a woman withholds receiving the get then she also has the power. Heter 100 rabbanim is not so simple and not used or accepted by many.
I resent the one person who is keeping me chained and he happens to be a man and halacha states what it states. Thats how I view it.
It is all stated in halacha and given over from man to man. But it is not that a bunch of men "made up" these halachos! Thats the difference.
True, some interpretations were made in accordance with the location and era where that rabbi lived but that is also why it is really only applicable to those people/that time. The world aint black and white

amother

Plum

Mon, Jul 10 2017, 12:18 pm

amother wrote:

There's an amother who is a first responder, and she was told by her Rav she's obligated to treat men before she treats women.

There was a thread about it a few years ago.

was this female first responder a hatzolah volunteer??

not possible. hatzolah only have men vols.

and utter rubbish, excuse my expression, about hatzolah treating men before women. they don't even have a sec. to think of that. they're busy saving lives!!!

amother

Plum

Mon, Jul 10 2017, 12:25 pm

simba wrote:

I don't like the sound of this. Someone here who's husband is on hatzalah, please put this to rest.

my dh is a hatzolah volunteer already the past 30 years, ke'h. and like I said in my earlier post - UTTER RUBBISH - saving men first before women or children.
these trained volunteers arrive at the emergency scene, and quickly do triage - they size up who needs treating first. there are so many hatzolah vols. ke'h that they can treat many injured very fast. r'l.

amother

Plum

Mon, Jul 10 2017, 12:39 pm

amother wrote:

There is no triage when you're called to deal with two people who are about to drown in a river, or to be pulled out of a building that's on fire.

As another poster mentioned - these aren't cases for Hatzolah who deal with responding to a medical emergency or emergencies.

Deciding who needs more urgent medical care is not the same is deciding who to pull out of a burning house.

hatzolah vols. aren't allowed to pull people from a burning house. that's for firemen. hatzolah do treat the injured that were pulled out of the burning house.

even by a pigua/large scale terror attack, hatzolah/ zaka e.t.c aren't allowed to start their "work" until the police and bomb zappers have given the all clear.
though, one time at a large scale terror attack where a several kg. bomb exploded r'l, my husband was running with an injured man in his arms to an ambulance, there were no available stretchers, and suddenly BANG! another bomb exploded in front of my husband.
A huge orange ball of fire shot upwards, with nails, screws, shrapnel exploding in all
directions.

Boruch Hashem, a miracle, my husband wasn't injured. He ran backwards away from the
bomb with the injured man still in his arms.

I've had many sleepless nights.

amother

Plum

Mon, Jul 10 2017, 1:27 pm

marina wrote:

A person's life is not the same as an animal's. Why is this relevant here?

I know the answer, I just want to hear you say it.

I'm sorry, but this thread is beginning to make me laugh out loud .... Very Happy

whoever made me laugh has a big mitzvah, b/c I've been in a down mood all day, and yesterday, and the day before, and ....

And whoever is answering questions on halachah here, tell me just where did you get your semicha to pasken from?
Are you 100% sure you know the correct answers to the many halachah questions mushrooming in this thread, or are you just reasoning, or using logic???

Very Happy

sorry, I'm off on a laughing spree again, can't help it Very Happy

my dh will be delighted to see that my all day long face has turned round. and I'll tell him, "it's all b/c of hatzolah."
and he'll say - "you see, working in hatzolah has many mitzvos." that is if he doesn't get
called out before he can answer at all .... Very Happy

amother

Plum

Mon, Jul 10 2017, 1:42 pm

[quote="marina"]We are fundamentally selfish, that's why. We save ourselves first over others.

I don't think it's a question of selfishness. It says in the Torah, "Chayecha Kodem," your own life first.
If 2 people are marooned on a desert, they feel they are getting dehydrated from the unbearable desert heat. One man has some water which is enough only to save one person's life - ... "chayecha kodem."

now, pleeeeeeeze do not start a thunderstorm over listening to halacha and asking Rabbonim.

amother

Gold

Mon, Jul 10 2017, 1:44 pm

amother wrote:

I'm sorry, but this thread is beginning to make me laugh out loud .... Very Happy

sorry, I'm off on a laughing spree again, can't help it Very Happy

What else can we say to make you feel better? Ice cream

amother

Plum

Mon, Jul 10 2017, 2:04 pm

Boca00 wrote:

You asked for it.... Wink

Who decides what's worth more? We have feelings, they have feelings. We both want to live. Is it their intelligence? Would you save an intelligent animal over an unintelligent human? Its not their feelings, desire to live or intelligence that makes a human life more valuable.

I leave the ethical decisions to the One that created the world. The world was created for us, to serve Him. So our life would take precedence over a non-Jew, and a non-Jew would take precedence over an animal, because he too can serve G-d.

I don't see why making a random decision is more ethical than listening to the One who created the world.

There you have it....

OMG it's getting hot in here... let's keep our tone down, and respectful, even if what s/o is saying is making one angry and perhaps sounds illogical.

Just my 2 cents, or rather 2 shekels: I'm not knowledgeable in whose life takes precedence over whom. I just know that it says in the Torah, "chayecha kodem" which I mentioned earlier.

And you are right - the wisest thing is to leave questions on ethics to Hashem. He did give us the answers in the Torah. So, the Torah should be our guideline.

I do remember learning that when Hashem Created the world; He created Man - Adam (I mean a person, not specifically a male/man Wink

) last, b/c like u say the world and all its beauty was Created for Man, to serve Hashem.

Man/a person is Hashem's most important part of creation of the world, and that's why saving a

person's life takes precedence over saving an animal's life.

amother

Plum

Mon, Jul 10 2017, 2:40 pm

amother wrote:

What else can we say to make you feel better? Ice cream

thanks, but not ice cream, it sounds too similar to "I scream!!!" which Sad

I've been doing too much off in the last few days.

why don't we start a thread on amusing anecdotes that happened to us, and have a good laugh. I'll have plenty to share of my embarassing but funny mistakes in Ivrit Very Happy

r all the threads on imamother supposed to be serious ones? is that one of the rules? I'm asking b/c I'm quite new and don't know all the rules.
It would be G-R-E-A-T to have a humorous thread that would have us all doubled up in laughter. even just once.
let off some steam from other threads pffffffff.

Iymnok

Mon, Jul 10 2017, 2:45 pm

amother wrote:

thanks, but not ice cream, it sounds too similar to "I scream!!!" which Sad

Go ahead, there are forums for that.
Interesting discussions
Chit chat
Inspirational
Games

Hjust scroll all the way down when choosing a forum.

amother

Plum

Mon, Jul 10 2017, 3:00 pm

Boca00 wrote:

I agree with that, I'm no incredibly selfless person either. But that still doesn't mean it's an inherently ethical decision and it seems that people are hung up on being ethical over all else, and no other criterion should be allowed into making this decision.

What's your answer on why humans over animals?

All of Hashem's creations are dear and should be treated with respect and gentleness.
My dear mother taught us that if we have to catch a spider, ants, mosquitos e.t.c we don't do it with glee, and bang! I caught you.
but with sensitivity, as much as we're able.
I, personally, try not to kill insects, I try to catch them onto something and let them out of the window.
Call me weird, if you like. I don't mind.
I do make an exception with cockroaches - I mean I do catch them or rather get my dh to catch them. oooh! aaaah! ugh!

Concerning saving a person's life over an animal's life:

"Boca00" if you saw a car driving, and a cat darts suddenly to the middle of the road a split second before the car reaches that part of the road.
The car's driver swerves fast in order not to run over the cat, he does knock into the poor cat's leg, loses control of the car and crashes headlong into a wall.

Would you run and treat the poor injured cat first, and leave the poor bleeding driver slumped unconscious over the steering wheel?

amother

Plum

Mon, Jul 10 2017, 3:28 pm

marina wrote:

1. Sometimes there is no way to consider the human behind the question and come up with a different answer. See, e.g. agunah.

2. In the entire above post you are wholly dependent on a rav to interpret the halacha for you and tell you what is ratzon Hashem. Sure, sometimes this works out but sometimes it doesn't. See the next point for an example.

3. I brought a post on page 2 specifically about a rav who advised a first responder in a very cut and dry way on whom to save. It was a simple flow chart and it determined, in this poster's eyes, who died and who lived.

You've only mentioned one Rav who paskened like that.

What about the thousands of other Rabbonim, ke'h??? How do you know they would pasken this way.
And I think that "Butterfly?" sorry, don't remember that female paramedics name, was not allowed to post HER psak that she individually received, onto a public forum, esp. on imamother, where some members are having a hard time accepting halacha and the concept
of asking a Rav. and are all riled up over equality and women inferior over men.

why add coals to an already burning fire???

IMVHO

amother

Plum

Mon, Jul 10 2017, 3:38 pm

amother wrote:

Yes, guess what I agree. By men. This is an orthodox jewish site. And orthodox - read true - judaism says that "moshe kibel torah misnai umesorah leyoshua etc" this is our religion. From one rabbi to his student. I dont understand the griping. If one does not like or agree one does not have to define themselves as orthodox. Why to trees have green leaves and not blue ones? This is how it is.
Read the 13 ikrei emuna - in particular the 7th, 8th and 9th. I think it couldnt be clearer than that.

And by the way I am an aguna of too many years because of complicated matters.
And I am not a woman who rolls over and takes it.
I am strong minded, strong willed and a woman who knows what she wants and stands up for her self and her rights. And yet I do not think of myself as cleverer than G-d and accept that this is his will. I believe that we have existed for about 3500 years precisely because we have not changed our Torah.
Yes modern times have brought great things for us and women have it easier. But the basic
principiles of our religion has not and shall never change.
Yes it is men who have and will continue to explain halacha. And not because my brain is not capable (believe me I suffered enough as a child because of the degrading description that I have a "mans brain" was given to me with the idea that it is actually a compliemnt (!!!)) but because I accept that if Hashem decided it to be this way than so it shall be.

I am happy in my role, in raising my children as strong confident independent free thinking, torah abiding people. I am happy and fulfilled in my role as a human, as a woman, as a mother, as a working woman, as a friend, as a daughter, as a sister, as a mentor, as a caring human being helping others in need, as a listening ear, even sometimes as a beneficiary of others kindness because of my difficult situation (trust me it can really touch your pride!), as a law abiding citizen of my country, as a liberal minded woman when it comes to human rights and dignity. I do not distinguish in every day life whether I can or cannot do something because I am a woman.

But when it comes to accepting reality I accept and do not question that men are the ones who tell us what halacha is. Because I say the ani maamin every day. And I am proud to be an orthodox jewish woman.

BEAUTIFUL!!!! and prefectly true. You brought tears to my eyes.
May Hashem Deliver you from your challenge very fast, in the zchus that you totally uphold the Torah way.