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S/O pregant mikva- segulot skepticism
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water_bear88




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jul 08 2017, 3:48 pm
I'm skeptical of most segulot, but certain ones don't bother meas much. Specifically, the ones that involve saying something- e.g. saying Tehillim or Perek Shira, or the Rebbi Meir Ba'al Haneis segula for finding something you lost. It's certainly possible to say them while lacking the proper kavana, but then the same holds true for davening.

Thoughts of other segula-skeptics? Some other grounds on which you accept or reject segulot?
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Iymnok




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jul 08 2017, 4:00 pm
I don't "believe in" any of them, but I do consider valid hishtadlus. There are some that are chukas ha'akum. Those I wouldn't do.
I do check the direction of our sefarim and mezuzos regularly towards the end of pregnancy. It's not hard and it's kavod for divrei kedusha.
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water_bear88




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jul 08 2017, 4:05 pm
Iymnok wrote:
I don't "believe in" any of them, but I do consider valid hishtadlus. There are some that are chukas ha'akum. Those I wouldn't do.
I do check the direction of our sefarim and mezuzos regularly towards the end of pregnancy. It's not hard and it's kavod for divrei kedusha.


True, it's not a bad time to do a check that probably ought to be done periodically out of kavod. Like I could see my kids thinking there's an actual inyan to change their toothbrush around 17 Tammuz, Succot, and mid-Tevet just because their mother finds it convenient to make sure toothbrushes are replaced about 4 times a year and Pesach is the only obvious one.
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amother
Royalblue


 

Post Sat, Jul 08 2017, 4:38 pm
I don't believe in segulos, but I do believe in the placebo effect. If it makes someone feel better, isn't chukas hagoy or safek avoda zara, and doesn't cost money, go ahead.
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amother
Crimson


 

Post Sat, Jul 08 2017, 6:37 pm
The Baal hanes one- now we lost something really valuable and I did it and we found it.

BUT what I learned from the experience was NOT "do this thing and you find stuff", but a whole lot more about things like -

You only see what Hashem wants you to see
He lets you see things only when you need to see it
Sometimes things really are hidden in plain sight
If He gives u an opportunity to give tzeddaka that is a Chessed not a financial loss because then you get the merit of tzeddaka (as in when I was giving the tzedaka I was thinking that I should be giving the value of the lost object, so we would still be out of pocket the same £ as the lost expensive item, but would have the zechut of the tzeddaka. Although dh overruled me on that one and we gave much much less).

The Baal haNes thing is very old though. Not sure about other segulot.
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tigerwife




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jul 08 2017, 10:24 pm
I don't know where the obsession with 40 came from (40 women, 40 days, etc- hey, maybe from the 40 Moshe spent in Shamayim?); however, if asked, I would try not to miss the opportunity to daven or do a Mitzvah with a klal.
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amother
Honeydew


 

Post Sat, Jul 08 2017, 10:56 pm
I was asked to bake challah with 40 women as a segulah for my sister who didn't have kids for a few years after she got married. I don't believe in the whole segulah concept at all, but definitely not in brand new segulos like that one. I declined to do it, using the true excuse that the timing was very bad for me, but if there was something I could do for her that I thought would really work, I would have made it work for me.

Family members were upset at me, but I know my sister doesn't either believe in it and she would be the first to tell me not to do it. I just stuck with the age old, proven segulos, davening and saying tehillim for her. She B"H has since had a few children, so who knows what really worked?
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 09 2017, 12:05 am
amother wrote:
The Baal haNes thing is very old though.

How old?
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amother
Crimson


 

Post Sun, Jul 09 2017, 12:21 am
I think it's in the gemara
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tichellady




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 09 2017, 12:40 am
Honestly, this is something I have not come to a real conclusion about. I also feel weird about asking Gd for things in prayer, as if I really know what's best for me. I find the concept of requesting things in prayer very difficult and it has never really made much sense to me.

I don't mind as much doing actual mitzvot as segulot but I don't get the things that aren't mitzvot, like going to the mikvah in the 9th month, which is not mandated.
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water_bear88




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 09 2017, 2:13 am
amother wrote:
The Baal hanes one- now we lost something really valuable and I did it and we found it.

BUT what I learned from the experience was NOT "do this thing and you find stuff", but a whole lot more about things like -

You only see what Hashem wants you to see
He lets you see things only when you need to see it
Sometimes things really are hidden in plain sight
If He gives u an opportunity to give tzeddaka that is a Chessed not a financial loss because then you get the merit of tzeddaka (as in when I was giving the tzedaka I was thinking that I should be giving the value of the lost object, so we would still be out of pocket the same £ as the lost expensive item, but would have the zechut of the tzeddaka. Although dh overruled me on that one and we gave much much less).

The Baal haNes thing is very old though. Not sure about other segulot.

I read over the text recently, and it seems to me to be a reminder that you're only going to find it if Hashem lets your eyes see it. I don't see a problem with such a reminder- that's why I included it with Tehillim as less-problematic. Nor the tzedaka- ותשובה ותפילה וצדקה מעבירין את רוע הגזרה
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 09 2017, 4:00 am
amother wrote:
I think it's in the gemara

Three words of the ritual are, but not the rest, nor are the words mentioned as a way to find lost items.

It's also possible that the Tanna Rabbi Meir (who that gemara is about) and Rabbi Meir Baal Hanes are not the same person,

https://judaism.stackexchange......edaka
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 09 2017, 8:19 am
The Litvish in me is definitely dominant.
I do regularly participate in challah segulos. When I take challah I incorporate a tefilla for whoever the name is at the end of the standard techina. And when I don't I still daven for whoever is on that week. I don't know about the 40 and all that, though I do know great women who promote it. I do know it's an auspicious time to daven, and it's comforting for the family of the name and that tefilla works, even when we don't see it. So IMO as much, if not more, than taking the challah are the tefillos that go with it.

In light of the chizuk it gives the person, whether or not it's efficacious, I asked if I should go to the mikvah in my 9th month if I could do it for someone who wanted the segula and I was told that if it's not my mesorah to go in the 9th month I shouldn't do it.

When shidduchim were going tough for one of my kids I asked a chashuv woman I know for practical, networking help. This woman, who has serious yekkish bona fides, told me to say Shir Hashirim for 40 days. So I did. Did it help dd get engaged 8 months later (she met him a few weeks before)? Who knows. But when I told dd I did it, after finishing the 40 days, she appreciated it.

I did participate in a tehillim group, with specialized pesukim being given, I don't want to say too much, and bli ayin hara the person being davened for did see a yeshua. I would like to think there was a direct correlation.

The point is, I have no idea. I'm Litvish enough not to put too much stock in segulos (Rabbi Reisman once spoke about segulos and said something - can't remember the line - but about segulos and shmiras halashon and hanging up a muzzle in your living room) yet believe that there is some serious metaphysical stuff out there that can work. The major consideration is, are segulos taking the place of the real hard work the situation is supposed to be a catalyst to: tefilla to connect to Hashem and cheshbon hanefesh for spiritual growth. (And of course, the standard hishtadlus necessary, doctors, etc. Though I should mention that I've heard that tefilla is also hishtadlus: Hashem made the world such that tefilla does effect change.)

Sorry for the rambling.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 09 2017, 8:21 am
tichellady wrote:
Honestly, this is something I have not come to a real conclusion about. I also feel weird about asking Gd for things in prayer, as if I really know what's best for me. I find the concept of requesting things in prayer very difficult and it has never really made much sense to me.

I don't mind as much doing actual mitzvot as segulot but I don't get the things that aren't mitzvot, like going to the mikvah in the 9th month, which is not mandated.


There's a great line in a song in Dov Dov and the Great Bicycle Race: "It means so much/to
me You see/Hashem please help me win/If it's good for me."
Nothing is too big, and nothing is too little, to talk to Hashem about.
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crust




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 09 2017, 9:13 am
Pinkfridge
Its funny that I always thought these segulos come from the litvishe or the sfardim.
The first time I heard about the early candle lighting segule was when a litvish yungerman had the swine.
I don't think any of these 40 days 40 people etc segulos come from chassidish sources.
I've been part of a nishmat group arranged leilu nishmas rebbetzin kenievsky a"h. I really thought this originates from the Litvishe.
As an aside, My father would never agree that a part of Shabbos davening should be recited daily, on a weekday, even as a segula.
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keym




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 09 2017, 9:13 am
tichellady wrote:
Honestly, this is something I have not come to a real conclusion about. I also feel weird about asking Gd for things in prayer, as if I really know what's best for me. I find the concept of requesting things in prayer very difficult and it has never really made much sense to me.

I don't mind as much doing actual mitzvot as segulot but I don't get the things that aren't mitzvot, like going to the mikvah in the 9th month, which is not mandated.


I agree. I personally think there is a big difference between those "segulos" that are a true mitzvah or davening and something that is extra and maybe nice, but by no means required and may take time away from doing what is required.
For example, the segulos for a healthy labor and delivery. During my pregnancies, I'll try to be mafrish challa with a brocha and say "in the zchus of this mitzva, it should be a healthy easy labor with a healthy mother and healthy baby." I'll also try to bentch licht on time and say the same thing. Mikva, my rav holds is not necessary at all, so going is a "feel good" thing and is probably taking time from doing something important. However if a friend wanted me to dip, it would be a chessed for her, so that would be something else entirely.
In general my rav holds that the best segulos for any situation are limud torah and the zchus of mitzvos. When a relative was sick, he encouraged us to take on extra learning, remembering to wash negel vasser, careful to say brachos, shmiras halashon rather than saying perek shira. He told us that as we're being careful in mitzva observance, we should say that the zchus of the mitzvos should bring a yeshua.
JMHO.
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Iymnok




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 09 2017, 10:51 am
FTR dh was suggested to me on day 33 of my saying of shir hashirim.
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LittleDucky




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 09 2017, 10:55 am
I was once told that saying tehilim, learning Torah and doing mitzvos are the best "segulos". In other words, following the latest fad segula isn't a great idea.

We don't believe in a bank system that if I do XYZ then for sure ABC will happen. We don't believe in magic or a payment system. We can only increase our zechusim so hopefully we merit something positive happening and only if it good for us.
Do all these women who are saying extra things davening a full shachris and mincha?
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LittleDucky




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 09 2017, 10:57 am
Iymnok wrote:
FTR dh was suggested to me on day 33 of my saying of shir hashirim.


And many people get engaged without saying it.
And I know many who say it and don't get engaged...
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jul 09 2017, 12:07 pm
crust wrote:
Pinkfridge
Its funny that I always thought these segulos come from the litvishe or the sfardim.
The first time I heard about the early candle lighting segule was when a litvish yungerman had the swine.
I don't think any of these 40 days 40 people etc segulos come from chassidish sources.
I've been part of a nishmat group arranged leilu nishmas rebbetzin kenievsky a"h. I really thought this originates from the Litvishe.
As an aside, My father would never agree that a part of Shabbos davening should be recited daily, on a weekday, even as a segula.


I guess I wrote that because of the (largely true, IMO) stereotype of Litvish as more rationalish (not rationalist Wink ).
And I know someone who got engaged after drinking from a chasuna/sheva brachos segula cup. It was his 300th but still.
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